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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
1967 Navy:
Mk-2 Fighting/Utility/Dive Knife,1911A1 .45 ACP Sidearm, M14 7.62 x 51mm Primary Battle-rifle.

2017: Gerber multi-tool, forget the sidearm, perhaps an M4 5.56 x 45 mm.

Perhaps the Navy was better equipped 50 years ago?

Perhaps that's why I'm here to pose this question?

Your feelings are????????????
 

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The Army was better equipped 50 years ago. They were phasing out the 1911 the year I retired. I carried one in a shoulder rig.
 

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I often wonder if the Civil War vets who used .58 caliber muzzle-stuffers watched the doughboys marching off to Europe with their puny .30's thinking,

"Wimpy ammo...they're screwed. Never gonna stop a Boche with that."
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I often wonder if the Civil War vets who used .58 caliber muzzle-stuffers watched the doughboys marching off to Europe with their puny .30's thinking,

"Wimpy ammo...they're screwed. Never gonna stop a Boche with that."
Perhaps the cyclic rate would have given those Civil War Vets a little more confidence. A quick demo of the "Mad Minute" might have been required?
 

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The problem I've always had with The Mad Minute is the wasted ammo on un-aimed fire and possible unintended consequences. Oh, and a good rifleman with a muzzle loader can get of 3 aimed round in a minute.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

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The US RFI for an "Interim 7.62mm rifle" was rescinded less than a month after being issued. A lot of stuff going on in small arms, and I think they're all having a bit of information overload.

LSAT - Light machinegun program and case telescoped ammunition. This program is thought to be in its final stages. About 25% weight reduction for gun, and IIRC about 40% weight reduction for ammunition (5.56mm). So if this is to be adopted, I'm sure there are many who will want a case telescoped ammo rifle to go along (which kinda makes sense). Then again...it's tough to wait on technology...Almost guaranteed if you do, you're going to get bit...and guaranteed you'll get bit if you don't.

H&K 416 - US Marines seem to be going all in on the M27 "squad auto" rifle, and the US Army says they're giving it real consideration.

6.5mm rifle program - Cheap body armor is a serious problem for the immediate future and will only become a larger problem. Much talk about whatever 6.5 they decide on, it will have tungsten core ammunition.

If you're Big Green, what do you do? Do they make a tungsten core case telescoped H&K 416 in 6.5???? (taking the "all of the above approach).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
"If you're Big Green, what do you do?"
YOU DO NOTHING.
Just keep on feeding the failed M16 Program initiated by the Airforce. Toss enough taxpayer dollars at it & it shall become effective, regardless of the costs. Even if it cost's lives, eventually folks shall become converts. Stick to your guns long enough, eventually the voices of those that survived in spite of it shall become believers. Who cares if Big Green needed to revive the useless M14 for the never been heard of before DM Program because the M16 failed on Modern (PREVIOUS) "Battlefields" ? Toss enough money & lives at it and it shall become reality. Put 50 years of complacency behind a failing, and eventually all the generations of surviving soldiers will fade away. All that shall remain are the lockstep troops that condone such actions simply because "That is the way it was when I Served", Please define an Oxymoron to me again..............
 

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"If you're Big Green, what do you do?"
YOU DO NOTHING.
Just keep on feeding the failed M16 Program initiated by the Airforce. Toss enough taxpayer dollars at it & it shall become effective, regardless of the costs. Even if it cost's lives, eventually folks shall become converts. Stick to your guns long enough, eventually the voices of those that survived in spite of it shall become believers. Who cares if Big Green needed to revive the useless M14 for the never been heard of before DM Program because the M16 failed on Modern (PREVIOUS) "Battlefields" ? Toss enough money & lives at it and it shall become reality. Put 50 years of complacency behind a failing, and eventually all the generations of surviving soldiers will fade away. All that shall remain are the lockstep troops that condone such actions simply because "That is the way it was when I Served", Please define an Oxymoron to me again..............
And...there it is. Told 'ya.

Could we make this a sticky titled, "Standard anti-M16 rant"? Then, instead of typing it out over and over again the aggrieved could just copy and paste.
 

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And...there it is. Told 'ya.

Could we make this a sticky titled, "Standard anti-M16 rant"? Then, instead of typing it out over and over again the aggrieved could just copy and paste.
Yep, saw it coming from a mile off.

Nevermind the fact it's the longest serving rifle in US history.
Or that it's used by at least 80 nations.
Or that most special ops branches of nations all around the world use some form of the M16 (M4 or shorter), regardless of what their standard rifle is.
Or that since its introduction, most every major military in the world has changed to either a 5.56 or 5.45

But hey, what does the US or every other major military organization in the world know? I'm sure had they just listened to M118LR, they would all be better off

Many who were wrong about the M16 came around...some just can't admit they were/are wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Was there not another member that told you that Frankenstein's monster started life as a 7.62 x 51 mm. How long will it take to achieve Stoners Original Work?
 

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At the request of the U.S. military, Stoner's chief assistant, Robert Fremont and Jim Sullivan designed the AR-15 from the basic AR-10 model, scaling it down to fire the small-caliber .223 Remington cartridge, slightly enlarged to meet the minimum Army penetration requirements. The AR-15 was later adopted by United States military forces as the M16 rifle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner

And, yes, the AR10 was a 7.62x51 weapon but, IMO, don't look for DoD to ever go back to that caliber for a main battle rifle.
 

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Was there not another member that told you that Frankenstein's monster started life as a 7.62 x 51 mm. How long will it take to achieve Stoners Original Work?
Stoner hated the 5.56 idea. And many others did at the time (and obviously still do). When I was old enough to consider the argument, the 5.56 had already distinguished itself, so I've always come down on the side of the 5.56 as a GENERAL PURPOSE RIFLE CARTRIDGE.

Now that last capitalized part is the important part.

Me personally, I really like the 7.62x39 for an assault rifle; it has more of what I like in a fighting rifle round.

But guys like you and I are gun-geeks, and riflemen. Being much better trained, generally more competent at arms than your average recruit, we tend to want more from our rifles.

But your average recruit, and the vast majority of soldiers are not gun people. They are people who are in jobs where they must carry a rifle. Most recruits are scared to death of a rifle, and training them on something like an M14 to be truly competent take a long time, and even after they have been sufficiently trained…give them a 5.56 and their scores will go up. What's more, their effectiveness in combat will go up; as studies by nearly every military in the world who has studied such things have shown. Again, this is general issue.

For most of what an infantry does, the 5.56 does it very well. So well in fact, that 9 out of 10 times a special operations group goes into the field, they carry their M4's. And it's that way for most every military and special ops group around the world.

After a while, you have to come to terms with that.

Now all that said, the US Military's decision to just dump the 7.62 was a dumb one. Certainly the M14 program was a train wreck, and canceling it was clearly the right thing to do. Switching to the M16 was the right thing to do (but certainly not HOW they switched). But to just completely drop the idea of a 7.62 battle rifle…that was dumb. All the other NATO nations pressed their old 7.62's into the designated marksman roles when the need arose, and the G3 & FAL did, and still do a good job in those roles. The M14 on the other hand…When pressed into DMR roles, it served well…for about a year. Then all the ugly issues started to come right back up, and the US Military was desperate for a replacement, which they got with the M110. But the M110 was pressed into service a little too quickly, and it too had issues (but fortunately those issues were one's that could be dealt with).

What kills me is how SPOT ON the Russians have been with their assortment of weapons they have available to their infantry and special ops units. It has taken a good 30+ years for the US to catch on, but what we have seen in the latest batch of wars and conflicts, is the need for an array of weapons for when the mission calls for a different weapon.

The Russians have their SCHV in the 5.45 and they're generally pretty happy with the performance of that round as a general issue round. But when the mission calls for it, they have a good number of other weapons available. Their issue squad auto is the RPK, but they do have racks of RPD's available should they need them. Each unit has a number of RPK gunners, as well as designated marksmen with the SVD rifle in 7.62x54. For the intended role, the SVD is a pretty darned good rifle. It is NOT a sniper rifle, it's a designated marksman rifle; and it does that job pretty well. RPK's are available, as is the various suppressed 9x39 rifles (and the US is now considering some suppressed .300 blackout rifles).

So for general issue, the 5.56 is pretty hard to beat. But the notion that it can do all missions is just as fool hearted as the notion that the 7.62 NATO can do all missions.
 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner

And, yes, the AR10 was a 7.62x51 weapon but, IMO, don't look for DoD to ever go back to that caliber for a main battle rifle.
It's funny, but just a couple of months ago, they issued an RFI for exactly that. And then rescinded it a month later.

I think the future of tungsten core ammo, and the proliferation of body armor on the battle field, even with poorly equipped insurgent troops, was the reason for that tender. I think their may be a cartridge change in the future, but it appears it's not going to be 7.62 NATO. They are working on a 6.5mm round. Now whether that 6.5 is going to be general issue, or MG/DMR focused remains to be seen. There are tungsten 5.56 rounds, but I think many are concerned that body armor will advance beyond even the tungsten 5.56, so the heavier cartridges may be the focus.

Eugene Stoner hated the 5.56 idea and didn't want to bother himself with the round as he thought once it got into combat, the idea would be scrapped due to poor performance. Turns out, the absolute opposite happened.

So he had to catch up with Fremont & Sullivan (Sullivan did the lion's share of the work), when it was adopted by the US Military. He was still the inventor of the rifle, and still the most knowledgeable about how it worked; even with the 5.56 cartridge.

It should also be noted that Stoner didn't design the AR-18 either. Arthur Miller was really impressed with Stoner's AR-16 rifle and thought the design had more merit than the AR10/15, so Miller took it upon himself to design the AR18/180. In the process, Miller made a lot of significant improvements to the design, and there are a number of things on the AR-18 that have Miller's name on the patents.

It should be noted that when it was clear that 5.56 was going to happen like it or not, the Marines were more interested in the AR-18 than the M16. But the M16 was much more fully developed, and the DOD didn't want to take the time to develop up the AR-18 (which probably would have been a better rifle in the end...but we'll never know)

Stoner was so impressed with what Miller did with the AR-18, that he decided to take the design further, and he created the M63; which is an improved, and modular AR-18. So while Stoner didn't care for the 5.56, he eventually saw that it was a better general purpose cartridge for an assault rifle, and eventually got on board.

I was fortunate enough to meet Mr. Stoner once. He was keynote speaker to the engineering department at Sacramento State University, and I was there for his lecture...It was really cool.
 

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.......... They are working on a 6.5mm round. Now whether that 6.5 is going to be general issue, or MG/DMR focused remains to be seen. .........
According to Ian Hogg --I don't have his exact quote-- but different countries/groups would do studies to determine the best all-around caliber for a battle rifle and they all ended up in the 7mm/.270 range. Of course there was too much .30 ammo in the pipeline to make the change. Maybe that 6.5mm will finally get some traction.
 
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