[DavidE]

Reading Massad Ayoob's column on 9mm 1911s in the latest Guns Magazine online -

GUNS Magazine June 2013 Digital Edition - Page 40

I was wondering, if you want a solid pistol in 9mm, why not have Hi-Powers too? Use the stuff learned in 1911 modifications as far as the Hi-Power?

Browning makes them and some European companies have cloned them, but I wonder if the market is there? If I had a gun company I think one could do worse than a line of full size, commander sized and compact Hi-Powers with some of those modern tricks like carry melt, forward serrations, maybe a rail on a full size model. Could be fun and shake things up a bit.

 

[Skeptic49]

The HP never took off. Even when they were cheap.

A New Twist On The High Power There were also license built versions from Iraq to who knows where.

I looked for one of the Argentine HPs, but even back in 06 they were difficult to find.

Geoff
Who figures Glock clones went the same way.

 

[SpecialEd]

The HP never took off. Even when they were cheap.

Actually the HP was at times the most prolific pistol on the planet.

A New Twist On The High Power There were also license built versions from Iraq to who knows where.

If you read the first sentence of that article it says just what I said above. I'm not aware of licensed Iraqi HPs but there were many clones passed off as the genuine article that ended up in Iraq with maybe a South African connection.

 

[shep854]

The best site for all things Hipower is the sadly departed Steven Camp's incomparable site, 'Hi Powers and Handguns':
Hi Powers and Handguns
----
IIRC, the FM (of which I own one) is the only officially licensed HP clone. If I felt the overwhelming need to carry a full-size SA 9mm, that would be it. While the 9mm GMs have been debugged, GM or 1911= .45!
To my eye, the 'newer' FMs look cheap with the non-stepped slide--good, reliable pistols though.

 

[stand watie]

shep854,

Have you ever seen the MALAYSIAN clone of a P35. -both the pistol & the holster LOOKS like pre-WWII.
In fact, if you don't "read the slide", you would believe FN made it. - I've wondered if they bought FN machinery from ???????
(I've shot one but so far cannot find one for sale in the USA.)

yours, sw

 

[SpecialEd]

The best site for all things Hipower is the sadly departed Steven Camp's incomparable site, 'Hi Powers and Handguns':
Hi Powers and Handguns
----
IIRC, the FM (of which I own one) is the only officially licensed HP clone. If I felt the overwhelming need to carry a full-size SA 9mm, that would be it. While the 9mm GMs have been debugged, GM or 1911= .45!
To my eye, the 'newer' FMs look cheap with the non-stepped slide--good, reliable pistols though.

I miss Steven he was a true Gentleman. To this day I emulate him by copying his simple but elegant closing in letters and emails, "Best."

While HiPowers and Handgus provides a wealth of practical info on day to day carrying and shooting of HPs, Steven was the first to admit he was not a collector or historian.

At least as late as 1990 there were only four other countries licensed to manufacture HPs, Canada, Argentina, Venezuela and Nigeria, though I have never seen a copy of the latter two.

 

[SpecialEd]

shep854,

Have you ever seen the MALAYSIAN clone of a P35. -both the pistol & the holster LOOKS like pre-WWII.
In fact, if you don't "read the slide", you would believe FN made it. - I've wondered if they bought FN machinery from ???????
(I've shot one but so far cannot find one for sale in the USA.)

yours, sw

The Indonesian "PINDAD" was a homegrown copy (and a good one at that) of a 1950s HP. FN only found out about it when Indonesia tried to order replacement parts from them.

 

[bearcat6]

The Hi-Power fits my hand better than any other double stack handgun I have ever tried. That includes Sigs, which I have to admit I have a weakness for, Berettas, Glocks, etc. And they are very accurate.

 

[Skeptic49]

Actually the HP was at times the most prolific pistol on the planet.

I meant it never enjoyed the resurgence of the SA Auto the 1911 currently enjoys. FN sold a lot of guns, how much this had to do with quality and not corruption, I cannot comment.

Browning sold a lot in this country, but lately FN doesn't even make the HP, as near as I can find out and I haven't seen one in the shops for years. The only one I've seen lately in the used gun case was a Hungarian clone.

Is the 9mm 1911 really heavily used for steel plate?

Geoff
Who is a curious fellow, whose 9mms are all plastic framed.

 

[SpecialEd]

I meant it never enjoyed the resurgence of the SA Auto the 1911 currently enjoys. FN sold a lot of guns, how much this had to do with quality and not corruption, I cannot comment.

Browning sold a lot in this country, but lately FN doesn't even make the HP, as near as I can find out and I haven't seen one in the shops for years. The only one I've seen lately in the used gun case was a Hungarian clone.

Is the 9mm 1911 really heavily used for steel plate?

Geoff
Who is a curious fellow, whose 9mms are all plastic framed.

Corruption?

FN still makes the HP but the parts are assembled in Portugal. All Browning pistols with the exception of the BDM were made in Belgium.

 

[SpecialEd]

FN sold a lot of guns, how much this had to do with quality and not corruption, I cannot comment.

Here are some of Cooper's comments on the quality of the HP.

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip

Vol. 10, No. 8 July 2002

We notice that the extrusion at the bottom of the grip safety on the 1911 (the "tang tumor"?) is practically standard with today's custom pistolsmiths. It may work for some people, but it never has worked for me. Apparently my hand is not constructed correctly, so I simply pin the device shut. It is not a safety consideration, as John Browning made clear in his design of the excellent P35 pistol. Safety does not ride between the hands, but rather between the ears.

Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip

Vol. 9, No. 14 December 2001

When Whit Collins dreamed up the Bren Ten cartridge back in the dark ages, the idea was to obtain equal or superior stopping power to that of the 45 ACP in a weapon of less bulk. The 9mm P cartridge has never been quite up to serious combat potential since its inception back in 1908, but fitting a truly big-bore cartridge into pistols designed for the Parabellum round did not at once become accepted. The Browning P35 service pistol had much to recommend it over much of the 20th century, but it is not possible to stuff a 45 ACP round into that action.

 

[shep854]

What's the latest on the HP steel? I've read comments (from Br'er Mas, among others) that stated the Hi-Powers couldn't handle extensive +P shooting. Is that the species as a whole, or just a few breeds?

 

[SpecialEd]

What's the latest on the HP steel? I've read comments (from Br'er Mas, among others) that stated the Hi-Powers couldn't handle extensive +P shooting. Is that the species as a whole, or just a few breeds?

Contrary to the groaning and moaning of many HP "purists" the cast frames of the MKIII are harder than the earlier forged frames. FN went to cast frames with the advent of the .40 caliber and in fact the same frames are used on the .40 and the 9mm. Most HP shooters that I know do upgrade to an 18.5lb spring though.

(Before the MKIIIs were introduced)

"Browning, on the other hand, forwarded a copy of an internal test report in which it fired 5000 rounds of Remington +P+ 9mm ammunition in a Browning Hi Power pistol. "Inspection of the Hi Power system reveled no unnatural wear to the locking surfaces or any other area. Headspace was checked and found to be acceptable." The conclusion: "...the 9mm Hi Power system appears to be durable enough to withstand long-range [term] shooting of the new ammunition from Remington."

As Steven Camp used to say: Most of us cannot afford to shoot enough +P to break or wear out a Hi Power.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

The issue is much less the frame as the slide where +P is concerned. The Hi Power slide isn't what you'd call a heavy, robust slide. With standard pressure ammunition a Hi Power will last you a couple of lifetimes. When the Brits switched to their NATO pressure (and possibly even higher) ammunition, Hi Power slides started failing, but it takes oodles of rounds. The only thing +P gets you is greater barrier penetration, it really doesn't equate to greater wounding ability. And you can get the same barrier penetration by just simply choosing a standard pressure 147 grain JHP. The current crop of 147's are all very reliable expanders, and deep penetrators.

 

[shep854]

ISTR reading that modern +P 9x19 is actually equivalent to the 'old' 9x19--where does thecurrent 124gr NATO ammo fall? I've heard it's hotter than standard US 9x19.
Dumb-sounding question, but my memory's fuzzy.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

ISTR reading that modern +P 9x19 is actually equivalent to the 'old' 9x19--where does thecurrent 124gr NATO ammo fall? I've heard it's hotter than standard US 9x19.
Dumb-sounding question, but my memory's fuzzy.

Well the US Military uses 9mm NATO which has a pressure limit at 36.5kpsi. Standard 9mm pressure is 35kpsi.

The first 9mm Parabellum load I'm aware of was what would be considered a standard pressure load with a 124 grain TMJ bullet. So while it had a heavier bullet than most other 9mm's to follow (most of which were 115gr), it was no more "powerful" than other 9mm loads. There are a couple of sources for the rumors of the "hot" early 9mm loads.

1 - There was the 9mm Mauser cartridge in the Broomhandle Mausers; this was a 9x25mm cartridge with power levels approaching modern .38 Super
2 - Many advocate the use of really hot loads in Lugers to make them function, and often it works. But this is just from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Luger action. The pistol doesn't require a 'hot' load to function. Often the issue is a worn magazine spring. The Luger action is VERY fast functioning, so a very stiff magazine spring is needed to keep up with the toggle action. So I think people who use hot ammo in their Lugers have perpetuated that myth of 'hot' early 9mm.

 

[shep854]

Thanks, Kevin! If old legends and myths didn't linger, what would we have to talk about???

 

[SpecialEd]

As should be obvious, I'm a big fan of the Browning HP. If you aren't or are still concerned with +P loads then get yourself a CZ-75 and be done with it. An excellent pistol, strong, accurate and you can have the option of SA or DA, not to mention some very nice compact models.

 

[shep854]

As should be obvious, I'm a big fan of the Browning HP. If you aren't or are still concerned with +P loads then get yourself a CZ-75 and be done with it. An excellent pistol, strong, accurate and you can have the option of SA or DA, not to mention some very nice compact models.

Better yet, get both! I did!

 

[SpecialEd]

Better yet, get both! I did!

I like the way you think. I have had a CZ-P01 on my wish list for a while now.