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I can see it. If he was using an HP, the safety of which is very hard to reach with the left trigger finger, he could have been mentally overwhelmed by the noise and time pressure. In trying to reach the safety, he could have turned the gun around as he was trying to make the safety accessible to the finger.
 

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I've looked into more than a few "accidents" and pretty well concluded that nothing is "impossible".

I was in a class recently using a borrowed 1911 that did not have an ambi safety. I'm left handed and had a left handed holster. Several of the exercises were draw and fire and I first disengaged the safety with my weak hand, reaching over the gun.

An instructor suggested to try using my trigger finger to sweep the safety down during the presentation. That worked very well since I already had a good grip coming out of the holster my trigger finger wasn't busy so the safety was off with the gun in a safe downrange direction as my weak hand completed the grip.

Now that might be hard for someone not quite as familiar as I am with the 1911. The difference was the student was apparently drawing from a strong side holster with his weak hand and that situation makes it very hard to control the gun.

I think "tragic" is a good description and the sheriff's suggestion of dry fire practice sounds good.
 

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Sounds like they were doing “combat” style shooting training at a CCW class. It was my impression that CCW class were not supposed to be classes to teach someone how to shoot, but rather make sure that someone could safely handle a gun, and understand the laws pertaining to carrying a gun. The drill they were doing should have first been done with an unloaded weapon, sounds to me like they were in a hurry and decided to go right to live fire.
 

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Depending upon the age of the BHP, the safety may have been damn near impossible to disengage with any digit!

Weak hand weapon manipulation is something for advanced classes with live fire AFTER dry fire of the procedure-if at all.
 

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William R. Moore said:
Depending upon the age of the BHP, the safety may have been damn near impossible to disengage with any digit!
So true! It's not THAT difficult to imagine him struggling with it and just as he gets it off, he fumbles the gun in some way and, feeling that he's lost control of it, he desperately and convulsively grabs/clutches for/at it and somehow manages to hit the trigger in the effort--perhaps even with his thumb. I'd have been less surprised if he'd shot someone to the right of him in this scenario, but I suppose it's possible the piece got turned around 180* or thereabouts. Well, it's obviously more than just possible, since something of the kind actually happened. :? :(
 

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Charlie Petty said:
I was in a class recently using a borrowed 1911 that did not have an ambi safety. I'm left handed and had a left handed holster. Several of the exercises were draw and fire and I first disengaged the safety with my weak hand, reaching over the gun.

An instructor suggested to try using my trigger finger to sweep the safety down during the presentation. That worked very well since I already had a good grip coming out of the holster my trigger finger wasn't busy so the safety was off with the gun in a safe downrange direction as my weak hand completed the grip.
I've spent many, many hours of "TV time" teaching myself to manipulate a 1911 saftey left-handed. I've become proficient in both methods you mention, working it with either the left thumb or the left index finger.

I'm not sure which technique is preferable. Both seem about equal in speed, and both require (for my hand, at any rate) breaking the firing grip somewhat and then reacquiring the firing grip after the safety is off. I think that under stress, the thumb method might be more positive, as I can imagine actually flipping or flinging the whole gun right out of my hand with the index finger method. (Would love to hear Br'er Mas weigh in on this one.)

I also note that the index finger method is much, much easier with an extended "speed" safety. With the nubby little WWII GI saftey buttonette, I have to let the gun "slip" forward quite far to engage the safety with the finger. Much less of this slip is needed with an extended safety. If it's the right size and shape and of the perfect fitment, I can almost do it from a firing grip.

Putting the safety ON with the left index finger is no trouble at all. Just try to point your index finger at the sky/ceiling and it flips the thing right on. :wink:
 

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Kevin Gibson said:
Sounds like they were doing "combat" style shooting training at a CCW class. It was my impression that CCW class were not supposed to be classes to teach someone how to shoot, but rather make sure that someone could safely handle a gun, and understand the laws pertaining to carrying a gun. The drill they were doing should have first been done with an unloaded weapon, sounds to me like they were in a hurry and decided to go right to live fire.
I with you Kevin. Though these type of classes aren't required in Alabama, I was under the impression that most of the "qualifying" live fire shoots were pretty straight forward and simplistic. Some may have weak hand shooting, but I've never heard of that kind of weak- hand-draw-from-strong-side-holster-present-aim-fire drill in a concealed carry class. Not on a hot range, anyway.

God bless and keep Mr. Seymour.
 

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IrishCop said:
I was under the impression that most of the "qualifying" live fire shoots were pretty straight forward and simplistic. Some may have weak hand shooting, but I've never heard of that kind of weak- hand-draw-from-strong-side-holster-present-aim-fire drill in a concealed carry class. Not on a hot range, anyway.
Yes, I believe that sort of thing is LFI-II course material, not LFI-I. I think there is some weak hand shooting in LFI-I, but not from the leather. That's in II, which is a pretty advanced course. (Been over 20 years since I took the classes so I might be a bit fuzzy about the weak hand stuff in I, but I know that in II we were taught how to run the gun completely, including reloading, weak-hand only, which is a very cool skill to have.)
 

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Gonna have to try to find time to check notes. I think I recall us doing one handed loading in LFI 1, but I'm not sure. The only support hand firing was 6 rounds at 7 yards or less. Certainly, the kind of stuff the article described was LTM-P or LFI-2.

I generally don't include actual weak hand shooting is basic CCW classes. One handed, yes; and I preach learning either hand, but unless there is copious time and the students show some talent, I don't introduce those skills. Trying to get them to grasp tactical reality and learn some fundamental skills is as far a stretch as I want (the vast majority of) them to try in introductory classes. Even if folks have some native talent or "previous experience". There's a vast difference between popping empty beverage containers at liesure and formal training.

The look on some folks faces when I tell them if they drop a pistol to let it go and NOT try to catch it is interesting. Thirty odd years later I can still recall the faces on some IPSC guys when I briefed them on a stage where they ran their primary empty and dropped it into a padded bushel basket before grabbing a model 10 and a speedloader to complete the stage. You'd have thought I'd told them to cook & eat their kids.
 

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I agree, Snake. IIRC, weak handed draws were covered at Thunder Ranch in DHG3, and were performed dry before they were done live-fire.
 

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William R. Moore said:
Gonna have to try to find time to check notes. I think I recall us doing one handed loading in LFI 1, but I'm not sure. The only support hand firing was 6 rounds at 7 yards or less.
I think you're right about a little weak-hand being done at close range in LFI-I. There might have even been six rounds of that in the final-exercise qualifier.

I'm pretty certain about the one-handed (both right and left) operation being done in II, though, at least when I took it (1988 for I, '89 for II). I know because I took a 4" King Cobra to I, and a 3" Smith 66 to II. When it came time for one-hand loading and you stuff the revolver into your waistband with the cylinder hanging out, this didn't work for me because my fat gut (at the time) exerted too much pressure on the butt end of the gun for the short 3" barrel to hold it, and it was in danger of levering out. But I quickly discovered that I could stuff the barrel down the front-pocket of my tight jeans, and everything held just fine (no gut interference that few inches lower), and I drove on. I remember this distinctly because I saw Mas give me a kind of a "WTF?" double-take when he saw what I was doing, but when he saw that it worked (and, presumably, mentally reasoned out WHY I was doing it that way), he didn't say one word to me about it.
 

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believe it or not but the cop shop taught a bit of weak hand draw, but that was with revolvers. Not sure where I did it with the 1911 and I'm pretty sure I don't want to do it now... :?
 

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I see negligence in the instructors' part here on alot of levels. A CCW class is NOT an advanced Self-Defense course. You're there to prove safe gun-handling and familiarity plus a modicum of Marksmanship.

We had a similar incident last year up in Adams County without the negligent death. Seems a Mall-ninja, for lack of a better term, got ahold of an Instructors'Card and was teaching CCW classes. Anyway, he was at the range teaching a class the live-fire part and had them doing 'Walk-ups' and changing hands halfway through, Strongside to weak. Then, a reload and firing while backing up. This would all be fine in an advanced Self-Defense course where it's confined to the instructor and one student at a time but, this Yo-Yo had the whole line doing it and people were everywhere. Unbeknownst to him, the Adams County Sheriff was watching as he waited to shoot and he stopped the class right there.
From what I understand he was charged with five counts of 'Reckless Discharge of a Firearm'(Five lanes).

I learned some weak-hand in the 260 Class I attended at Gunsite and more in the 360 Class. Had trouble in the 260(I'm Left-handed and this was before I discovered Ambi Thumb-safeties). After the first drill I just naturally started sweeping the Thumb-Safety with my Trigger-finger for Left-hand since my trigger-finger was outside and straight down the holster. For right or weak-hand it was hard getting used to using my right thumb, I kept trying to sweep the Thumb-safety with my right trigger-finger but, there was nothing there!!! Of course there was a remark from the head-instructor(You know who) about my Ambidextrous Thumb-safety disengagement.

As far as the above-mentioned incident with the death,as far as I'm concerned making a bunch of untrained people try a weak-hand draw and fire from a strongside holster is criminal. That's a move that requires alot of practice.
 

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Retmsgt. said:
I see negligence in the instructors' part here on alot of levels. A CCW class is NOT an advanced Self-Defense course. You're there to prove safe gun-handling and familiarity plus a modicum of Marksmanship.

We had a similar incident last year up in Adams County without the negligent death. Seems a Mall-ninja, for lack of a better term, got ahold of an Instructors'Card and was teaching CCW classes. Anyway, he was at the range teaching a class the live-fire part and had them doing 'Walk-ups' and changing hands halfway through, Strongside to weak. Then, a reload and firing while backing up. This would all be fine in an advanced Self-Defense course where it's confined to the instructor and one student at a time but, this Yo-Yo had the whole line doing it and people were everywhere. Unbeknownst to him, the Adams County Sheriff was watching as he waited to shoot and he stopped the class right there.
From what I understand he was charged with five counts of 'Reckless Discharge of a Firearm'(Five lanes).

I learned some weak-hand in the 260 Class I attended at Gunsite and more in the 360 Class. Had trouble in the 260(I'm Left-handed and this was before I discovered Ambi Thumb-safeties). After the first drill I just naturally started sweeping the Thumb-Safety with my Trigger-finger for Left-hand since my trigger-finger was outside and straight down the holster. For right or weak-hand it was hard getting used to using my right thumb, I kept trying to sweep the Thumb-safety with my right trigger-finger but, there was nothing there!!! Of course there was a remark from the head-instructor(You know who) about my Ambidextrous Thumb-safety disengagement.

As far as the above-mentioned incident with the death,as far as I'm concerned making a bunch of untrained people try a weak-hand draw and fire from a strongside holster is criminal. That's a move that requires alot of practice.
Slight correction due to aging memory, it was 250 and 350 classes. 260 and 360 were shotgun classes which I also took. Thanks for the jog Tim.
 

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Review of the LFI-1 notes show support and gun hand (terminology has changed since 1989) only qualification at 4 yards. There definately was practice of same.

I have memory, but no explicit notes, on something over an hour dry practice in reloading and various other weapons manipulations prior to live fire on the range. Apparently I considered the event un-noteworthy.
 

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Does anyone know if the State CCW laws require a standard lesson plan?
Geoff
Who notes FL does not and that he should take a refresher even though it's not a requirement.
 
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