Gun Hub Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Need some advice on best 800 yd C&R rifle /scope combo, scope need not be original type. And only need 4-6 " group at that range .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
You act like thats odd. I don't need drama or your sarcasm.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,943 Posts
Generally the people that are capable of shooting 1/2 moa @ 800 yards have their own sources of information.
Generally the people that can shoot 1/2 moa at 800 yards recognize that this is exceptional, and not ordinary.
The presence of "only" in the O.P., and the fact that you ask it here, suggests to me that you don't fall into the general class of people that can shoot 1/2 moa @ 800 yards, hence my reply.
Generally people that are rude to moderators on internet BBs don't last long.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I didn't say I could shoot it, I said I wanted advice on a rifle that could, you have to have a rifle that can do it before you can. I cant shoot bowling pins at 100 yards with a Glock , but I can with my 1911. Get the point ? And I wasn't being rude, just responding to a rude comment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,804 Posts
First of all, do you really think your gonna find a milsurp rifle capable of that sort of accuracy?

Second of all, Mr Burke has some good points.

I have some very expensive rifles, and some that will do what you are asking, but the prospect of finding something that has been thru the arsenals, thru storage and issuances and back to arsenals, that will come back and shoot .5 MOA are realistically slim to none.

Here is the currrent small bore 1000 yard world record, its 3 inches at 1000 for ten shots. Its a freaking water cooled gun. http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/20 ... ld-record/

So when you say meh, I can shoot .5 to .75 MOA with some arsenal handled gun, people start to go, geeeeee, maybe you better read up a bit more on the subject.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,055 Posts
Sarcasm may not be out of line if the question sounds like a troll... If you hadn't put the C&R in there you would have gotten a different answer.

There certainly are rifles that can do that but the majority are custom built and in calibers never used in C&R eligbile rifles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
840 Posts
2HOW;
...I feel the need to add that if you had specified what you wanted the information for, your request might've been taken more seriously.
For instance, are you writing a short story or novel, and need a firearms gimmick or a verification of a mechanical possibility?
Your bald and unqualified question seemed a little silly.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,055 Posts
After further review it might well have been possible for match quality 30-06 ammo to come close because some of the Palma Match stuff really shot well. I don't know if any of the really tricked out Model 70s from the 50s-60s are C&R eligible. A real National Match Springfield might well go under 1 MOA but they are few and far between and cost megabucks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Im not a rifle shooter, just asked a question, a simple reply like" there is none" would suffice. A troll? LOL No just ignorant I suppose, I should of in retrospect worded it differently, sorry. Im looking for a long range C&R rifle, any suggestions?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,055 Posts
If you start with a realistic expectation and are willing to handload you can probably get 1-2MOA. I don't think there is a chance that surplus ammo can even come close.

You will need to be willing to install a scope because long range accuracy with iron sights is tough

My undertanding is that the British SMLE can be very accurate and I believe you best chance is either 303 or a Springfield
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Al Thompson said:
For a C&R that hovers around 1 MOA fairly consistently, try a Swiss K-31 or K-11. The surplus Swiss ammo available is very good. :)
Another has pointed me towards the K 31. And the .303 was one I thought would be good. How about a 762x54 ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,186 Posts
I have been around this block a couple dozen times so I will take a shot at it for you. First off I have won National Trophies at Camp Perry for shooting at 800,900 and 1000 yards and came second in the long range championships (Canadian Cup Match) two times and made the Palma 20 five times in six years which at that time was the top 20 aggregate shooters using all scores fired at 600 yards and beyond. Thusly I have strived to attain what you are asking for a number of years. What you are asking can be done but not with the rifle you ask about being an out of the arsenal shooter.

Bottom line is you have a better chance of hitting the Power Ball Lottery than achieving what you are asking and I will try and give you the foundation to work from. First off military ammo SUCKS as standard deviation and extreme spread will never be available for any of it EVER MADE that will give you the hope of attaining such.
Combloc 7.62X54 would be amazing to hit a five gallon bucket at 600 yards with regularity. For that matter 30.06 M72 Match ammo when new would just barely do it at 600. The ammo was required to print about 11" at 600 which was capable of shooting possible scores on the old B target. The last of the 30.06 Match ammo was made in the 60s and dumped by the DCM (now CMP) at Camp Perry in early 80s and at that time no one wanted it because everyone had converted to 7.62 and I laid in every last round I could buy and trade for as I knew that was the last ship that was ever going to come in. I mainly got it as the brass is superb and with a good tight chamber and technique you can reload it well over 100 times.

To even have a slim chance of doing what you are asking would require some very exotic loading techniques which first thing out the gate you would need an extreme spread of around 12 feet per second in your ammo. You will be wasting time and money to even hope two consecutive rounds of any military spec ammo would give you 12 fps much less 15 to 20 rounds of continuous firing.

The killer is the rules which I assume you are referring to are the CMP Rule 6.3.6 :
6.3.6 As-Issued Foreign Military Rifle
The rifle must be a rifle that was issued by the Armed Forces of a country other
than the U. S. and be in as-issued condition. All as-issued foreign military rifles
must be manually operated bolt-action or straight-pull rifles. Semi-automatic
or fully automatic rifles are not permitted.
(1) These fi rearms must be as issued by the foreign government, with a standard
stock and sights.
(2) Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.
(3) Rifles must conform to the weight and dimension specifications of the
standard issue service rifle. Weights may not be added to the rifle.
(4) Only Government Issue parts or commercial parts of the exact same
weight and dimensions may be used.
(5) Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular
military personnel. Special purpose sights designed for sniping or target
practice are not permitted.
(6) Rifles that were issued with sharp-edged, inverted V ("barleycorn") front
sights may be retrofi tted with fl at-topped post front sights of military type.
Retrofi tted front sights may not have copper bead or colored aiming elements.
Retrofi tted front sights may not be wider than 0.100".
(7) Rifles that were issued with side-mounted front sling swivels may be retrofi
tted with sling swivels of military type (not quick detachable) that are
positioned in the 6 o'clock location, relative to its original sling swivel location
(may not be moved forward or rearward from that point). If the issue
swivel was narrower than 1 1/4" the retrofi t swivel may be 1 ¼". The
as-issued sling may be replaced with a standard U. S. military sling (Rule
6.9.1).
(8) Rifl es may be accurized only by the careful assembly of standard parts.
(9) Rebarreling with a barrel of as-issued dimensions is permitted.
(10) Shims made of wood, fabric, paper, metal or other similar material, of
types that were originally installed by military arsenals in these rifl es and
that are placed between the stock and the action, barrel or trigger assembly
are permitted. No other modifi cations or alterations of the "as-issued"
rifl e such as the use of glass or epoxy bedding in any location are permitted.
The use of synthetic or laminated stocks is not permitted unless such
stocks are original Government Issue stocks.
(11) All as-issued rifl es must be chambered for the cartridge for which they
were originally chambered.

K31s for sure are excellent shooters as is their ammo but there are other problems with all these rifles which is sights. Military sights suck big time as most are geared for 300M and insofar as 300Meter rifles are concerned the K31 is probably king of the hill.
The M39 Finish Mosin would be good candidate to run with but again the sights are the killer.
The Brit rifles are problematical because finding one with a bore that was not destroyed well before its time by the cordite ammo is going to be very hard indeed. Rebarreling is permitted but finding someone with the ability to manufacture a Brit barrel to their design will be very expensive as the Knox form and lugs on front of No 4 will be the killer. There haven't been new No 4 barrels available in over ten years and if you did find an original it would be quite valuable.
The good news these matches are normally shot at 200 yards and the ten ring is 7" diameter so if you can field a rifle that shoots 3" at 200 yards you stand a pretty good chance of being competitive.
The No 4 MK1 would be the rifle of choice for longer range because it has a peep sight with screw elevation that will take you to 1000 yards and beyond however Kentucky Windage is what will be needed.
The 03A3 has windage but the sliding detent sight is the killer but you could file the front sight to deliver the right elevation at 200 yards.
If I were going for what you are looking for I would load Sierra 175 Matchking bullets for the 30 caliber rifles and you will need to invest in a good chronograph.
As indicated above you need an extreme spread of no more than 15 fps which means you are looking for a SD of under 5 fps. How hard is this? Well the Marine Corps Rifle Team Ammo room at Quantico told me years ago their requirement for the Rifle Team Match ammo was a SD of 10 which is attainable with care but even that will not give you what you are looking for.
Figure it this way, a 100 feet per second extreme spread ammo lot will give you 40" of elevation at 1000 yards. Thusly you need an ES of 50 fps just to maintain the 20" ten ring and 25 fps to maintain the X ring which is 10" at 1000. Assuming you have absolutely no aiming error is but a dream with iron sights so you need ammo with a much less extreme spread of 10 to 15 fps just to maintain the ability to hit the X ring because shooting a perfect score alone will not do it. You need a high X count for the big leagues as Xs are tie breakers.
Next you are looking for a very fine barrel which for those requirements is going to be lapped and fitted by someone experienced in building long range rifles. For instance for best accuracy you need a action that has the threads cut at right angles to the barrel and this is easier said than found. Next the receiver is going to have to be squared on the front end so the barrel can touch 360 degrees at same time. If it doesn't you are going to develop a harmonic problem and it will never shoot well even if you ammo has a 5 fps extreme spread. To get a idea of what is involved here I suggest Hinnants book: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6915 ... EL_FITTING
The book primarily describes the problems found in Remington actions but the theory is applicable to other rifles as well.
As a thought to keep in mind here are the acceptance accuracy requirements for production US Military Rifles fired from machine rests at 100 yards:

1903 Springfield 3"
M1 Garand 5"
M14 5.5"
M16 4.5"
M4 4.5"

The Army Marksmanship Unit rebuilt the M14s and their requirement with match ammo was 4.5" at 300 yards. Some would go 3 to 3.5" but rarely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
2HOW said:
Al Thompson said:
For a C&R that hovers around 1 MOA fairly consistently, try a Swiss K-31 or K-11. The surplus Swiss ammo available is very good. :)
Another has pointed me towards the K 31. And the .303 was one I thought would be good. How about a 762x54 ?
Maybe a Finn M39 would be close to the "most accurate" in x54R. Most of the Finn M39's are in good shap and would give you good accuracy out to 800. There is no gaurntee that the one you find @ the gun show or dealer or online will shoot good though. Just like all milsurps, you won't know if it will shoot until you shoot it. Even after you find one that shoots decent you will have to tinker around and find a load that will shoot the best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,186 Posts
If you happen to get a M39 and it runs good with handloads stay away from the Combloc surplus ammo as it will polish your barrel right down because the copper "wash" is very thin and it wears away about half way down barrel and it is steel on steel the last half.
I had a chance to borescope a barrel with 5000 rounds of Combloc ammo on it and the lands were worn down even with the grooves last ten inches of barrel. The barrel finish was smooth as glass but had been shot into a funnel for lack of a better description.
I have a few rounds of it from my buddy who has a can and gets about 50% misfires on it. He lets me have it and I will pull the bullets and reload them to break in new barrels. 20 rounds on a new barrel should do wonders to remove tool marks and polish out rough surfaces.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,882 Posts
Hummer et.al.,

what i'd REALLY like to find is a "Spanish Scorpion", i.e., the 1893 LONG-barreled 7MM rifle in good shape for that particuliar "gun game".
(as many here know, i'm very interested in the weapons/gear of the S-A WAR & the Boxer Rebellion.)

Hummer: btw, does my 1955-vintage DANISH M1 Garand qualify as a "foreign military rifle", as only the BARE receiver is SA-manufacture?
(everything else is either Danish or Italian/PB made.)

yours, sw
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top