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OKAY, folks, let's play "GRAB THAT GUN!"

Geesh, does that normally happen at "stop & robs?"

First, were I to respond to a criminal who has his weapon out, I think I'd try to be a tad bit faster, secondly, he grabs for MY gun, he gets a free sample of lead. Hollowpoint. 9mm. Maybe .45. Depending on how generous I'm feeling .......:twisted:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think you have to consider whether or not Mr. Clerk KNEW it was a BB Gun that the bad guy had. If that was the case, then I don't think deadly force would be an option.

Now, the bad guy grabbing for the clerks gun was a bad move on his part, and would NORMALLY be answered by gunfire, but again you have to know just what the clerk was thinking or feeling at that moment.

Me? IF I recognized the "gun" the bad guy had was a BB or Pellet gun or whatever, no shooting by me.

I also would NEVER put my firearm within inches of the person I perceived as a threat unless I had no choice (a la Zimmerman) . Great thing about guns is they bark over HERE and bite over YONDER.
 

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Who thinks the clerk should have shot the robber and if so, why?
It's hard to tell from the video if the clerk KNEW it was a BB gun or not. I'd say he most likely knew, or the other guy would have had a much worse day. I'd say the clerks level of force was commensurate with the situation at hand…mostly. Pistol whipping is just about NEVER a good idea, but other than that, he seemed to handle the situation very well.

Were it me, I would have asked the gentleman to leave the store. I'm not interested in making a citizens arrest, and I'm sure not interested in shooting someone…even someone who ought to be shot. Easier day for all to just let the guy go. Less paperwork for me, and chances are he'll do something else to get himself killed later on. Would I shoot if I had to? Yes, but this one turned out pretty well. Any day guns come out and no one gets shot is a good day.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Kevin, I agree about the "arrest". I may have a duty to arrest as a sworn officer, but if I were just an employee or even owner of the store, I would have let him go his merry way and called 911.

And you have a point about a scandium .357. I have a plain old j frame .357 with a three inch barrel that is NO FUN with magnums.
 

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It is my understanding that if you REALLY have to shoot you don't notice the recoil nearly as much.

At least that has been my experience when hunting.

But Kevin is totally correct about the gun. The scandium 357 is the singularly most brutal handgun I have ever fired.... of course part of that is because I'm smart enough to NOT shoot the other contenders for the crown.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I believe it, Charlie. My little Model 60-15, even with some fairly nice grips, still kicks like hell. The screw holding the rear sight to the frame shot loose after one cylinder full. A little Locktite and no other problems but sure no FUN.

I don't doubt that you might not notice recoil in a lief or death situation. I have talked to a couple of deputies that stated they didn't even hear the shots really.
 

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Unless you're carrying a Scandium J frame in .357 Magnum. Then the person who does the shooting only comes out slightly better than the one being shot;)
I seem to recall our old friend Mas having a colorful quote about the ultra-light J-frames... probably mangling the opener but it was something like, "As I look at my Airlight Ti and Airlight Sc, it occurs to me that if I'm going to DELIBERATELY do something that hurts like hell, I might as well just go down to Mistress Fifi's House of Pain and at least get an orgasm out of the deal." (It was in Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, and might've crossed over to Book of COncealed Carry as well.)
 

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Who thinks the clerk should have shot the robber and if so, why?
If he thought the robber's gun was real, I think he should've shot as soon as he presented his own gun.
If the clerk's gun was real, he probably should've shot when the robber reached for it.
As for me, if I know it's a BB gun, I'll pull mine, stay back out of reach behind the counter and call the police. The robber only gets shot if he approaches.
 

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I believe it, Charlie. My little Model 60-15, even with some fairly nice grips, still kicks like hell. The screw holding the rear sight to the frame shot loose after one cylinder full. A little Locktite and no other problems but sure no FUN.

I don't doubt that you might not notice recoil in a lief or death situation. I have talked to a couple of deputies that stated they didn't even hear the shots really.
I don't recall the recoil but I swore I fired just twice...I fired three. I guess my training kicked in and I continued shooting until the threat ended. I went home, he didn't. His choice, not mine.
 

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I asked the question because it brings out some very sticky areas of defensive shootings...

The real issue lies with the clerk. The robber has already made his intention clear so it comes down to what the clerk "reasonably Believes". It matters only in hindsight because the action of the clerk can only be judged on what he reasonably believed at the time.

Since we don't know that there is no right or wrong answer from us but if the clerk believed that he was at risk or death or serious bodily injury the use of deadly force is lawful.
 

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I asked the question because it brings out some very sticky areas of defensive shootings...

The real issue lies with the clerk. The robber has already made his intention clear so it comes down to what the clerk "reasonably Believes". It matters only in hindsight because the action of the clerk can only be judged on what he reasonably believed at the time.

Since we don't know that there is no right or wrong answer from us but if the clerk believed that he was at risk or death or serious bodily injury the use of deadly force is lawful.
Very good points. The perp could have found himself dead quite easily, and looking at the video the clerk would have had a pretty much air tight case. Police shooting people with non-guns sets a clear precedent. Often stupid hurts…in this case, the Good Lord suffered the fool.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
But heaven help the poor clerk if he knew it was fake and someone found out...
Yeah, Charlie. And if there is one thing I have learned in the last 20 years, it's that people seem to have a compulsion to talk about things that common sense would dictate should be kept a secret. It isn't CSI forensics that solves most crimes...it's the fact that people can't keep their mouths shut. (thank God)
 

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I was taught in rookie school that the first thing you should say is "I was in fear for my life (or an innocent other)."
 

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...and you get 4 days off paid on administration leave....
 

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Simply from reading various Armed Citizen stories over the decades and a very few discussions with folks who've gotten into the gun pointing thingie, there seems to be some reluctance to pull the trigger. I'm not sure if this stems from too many movies where mutual gun pointing leads to a bloodless conflict resolution or a reluctance to fire.

Sometimes, it works, the BG didn't expect resistance and beats feet. However, it doesn't take too many episodes of Gangland to realize (if you previously had doubts) that there are a whole bunch of people out there with next to no common sense. In that case, things end badly.
 
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