[IrishCop]

I signed up for USFA newsletters. Got one the day before yesterday. USFA was introducing their very own "ShotPistol", a SAA styled .410/.45 Colt . They have two versions...one is called the "M-4". Instead of a barrell, it has a birdcage flash suppressor screwed into the frame.

I was the one (among others, to be sure) muttering "things that make you go...eewwww" when Smith introduced their version. But USFA? And a SAA .410/.45 Colt with a birdcage flash suppressor?!?!?!? Criminy! :ek:

http://www.shotpistol.com/

 

[Charlie Petty]

Whod'a thunk :?: :?: :?:

I have the S&W and the 3 pellet 000 buck load is pretty stout, as is Winchester"s "Defender" which has 3 "Defense Disc" and 12 BB shot. Haven't done patterns yet

I'm still arguing with myself over which would be a better defense load the 3 shot or a big .45 Colt bullet

 

[HankB]

. . . a SAA .410/.45 Colt with a birdcage flash suppressor?!?!?!? Criminy! :ek:

Hmmm . . . as long as they're updating an SAA, why not add a Picatinny rail, Eotech, flashlight, and laser - bring it into the 21st Century.

I have the S&W and the 3 pellet 000 buck load is pretty stout, as is Winchester"s "Defender" which has 3 "Defense Disc" and 12 BB shot. Haven't done patterns yet

I'm still arguing with myself over which would be a better defense load the 3 shot or a big .45 Colt bullet

There's been plenty of debate on various forums about the defense capability of various 12 ga shotgun loads - 00 and 000 buck are generally (but not universally) favored. While certainly lethal, I personally don't have much confidence that what amounts to a fraction (less than half) of a 12 ga. load at substantially reduced velocity will be as reliable a "stopper" as a big .45 Colt bullet.

 

[Charlie Petty]

I personally don't have much confidence that what amounts to a fraction (less than half) of a 12 ga. load at substantially reduced velocity will be as reliable a "stopper" as a big .45 Colt bullet.

It would be easy to fall into an apples/oranges trap trying to use a 12 ga. for any comparison.

Here's what I do know
using the S&W

.45 Colt 250 gr. Gold Dot 712 fps
.45 Colt 225 gr. W-W Defender 828 fps

W-w 000 buck 3 pellets 0.39" dia 90 gr. each 885 fps

at the close ranges for which the gun is intended it looks like the buckshot would be my choice.

 

[Retmsgt.]

Ya know? I never really understood the 'Big-bullet/ super-short Barrel' thing. Even with a hot load you won't get enough velocity for even half-azzed expansion. Just a big really slow bullet that has neither Energy or Momentum. Not much better than a 38SPL 158 RNL. I know they now claim expansion with short-barreled big-bores but, I'm not ready to stake my life on a manufacturers' claims.

 

[Patrick Sweeney]

RE: the buckshot specs.

Seems to me that 270 grains, at 885 fps, starting out with more than twice the frontal surface area, might be useful. No expansion needed.

(.45; 0.160 sq-in, vs. buckshot, 0.358 sq-in)

 

[Charlie Petty]

Good point...

I intend to measure the dispersion at increasing ranges but at inside the house ranges I think the buckshot is the winner... more to come

 

[Retmsgt.]

That's true Pat, if the buckshot hits in one lump. If distance spreads the shot,even a short distance like say, 21 feet could do it at a slow velocity, you would end up with three small pellets at a much lower energy-level. Lead Balls aren't the most ballistically-efficient missiles out there. You're talking 156.4FPE for each pellet at the muzzle. At powder-burn range that's an impressive 468FPE but, what would it be at 21 feet.
Not picking, just playing a little Devils' Advocate here.

charlie! If you get a chance, shoot the buckshot load at 21 feet(Length of the average Hallway) and show us the target.

 

[Charlie Petty]

Already in the plan but the photos are for the article. You can take my word for it or buy the magazine :lol:

But if you keep up with the FPE stuff you'll have to do it yourself...

 

[Tim Burke]

I saw this on an e-mail list; after I saw the M-4 I was sure it was a joke.
I e-mailed USFA.
The joke is on me.

 

[William R. Moore]

I think the birdcage is a good gag. My memory isn't what it should be, exactly how long were we killing things with firearms without worrying about bullet expansion? Three or four centuries?

 

[Retmsgt.]

Not the point William, if a Self-defense cartridge turns up limitations, people need to know this. Even one century ago people weren't running around jacked up on drugs that made them harder to stop except maybe the Moros. They proved what a light bullet with little energy can do and not do.

All I'm saying is that what the .410 shell can do out of that puny barrel needs to be mapped out.

 

[HankB]

Charlie,

I think 000 buck is supposed to be 0.36" in diameter, not 0.39" . . . and in pure lead, would weigh about 70 grains or so. Lead pellets that are 0.39" in diameter would be close to 90 grains, but they're larger than 000 buck.

At 885 ft/sec, 70 grain pellets would be roughly like a .32 ACP; 90 would be a bit more, but still short of .380. I'd expect penetration to be reduced from that of the .32 and .380 pistol rounds. (If the BG is a steroid-pumped biker in full leathers, that might be a problem.)

Nothing to sneer at as it's definitely lethal . . . but I'd still be inclined to go with the single bigger bullet . . . I didn't realize that the 250 LC barely broke 700 ft/sec in the Judge, but the 225 Win at a respectable 828 is awfully close to a standard 230 .45 ACP out of a 5" 1911. And that ain't bad.

 

[WaltGraham]

Reckon I'll stick with the .45 - there's only one projectile's terminal point for which I'll need to be concerned.

 

[guntotin_fool]

Let see. A 255 grain soft lead SWC at 950 (proven to stop people for at least 140 years) vs three rounds from a .380 fmj. Nope. I want the single big slug.

 

[Charlie Petty]

The label says 000 but the dimensions I gave are actual measurements.

 

[guntotin_fool]

I used a 90 grain weight and the given velocity to pull the comparison to a .380.