CCW discussion; seeking opines of what, why, etc.

Bryce said:

…here's what I'd like to start this thread off with; for those of us not as knowledgable with handguns as other weapons (rifles, shotguns, etc) What are good choices for a carry gun? What are some of the things one should look for, be careful about, how much should I look to invest, and pros and cons of weapons, ammos and carry modes…

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Bryce,

Your question is a tough one because there is no RIGHT answer to it. There are alot of factors that go into what is the proper handgun for each individual for concealed carry. One of my first suggestions is to either find a range that has rental guns for you to try, or if there is none around you that have rentals, go to the range where you currently shoot your Import Sports/Llama and talk to guys about what they carry and some may even let you shoot their guns. What is important is what feels good in YOUR hands, and if you can shoot it well. My second suggestion is for you not to overspend you budget on the gun alone. If you are going to a different caliber from your current .45acp, make sure you have enough money to purchase plenty of ammo to practice with. You would be surprised how many guys go and buy a gun, buy one box of ammo and load one magazine out of that box, load the gun and carry it :shock:

Other factors to consider is your size, planned mode of carry, and your normal mode of dress. When properly attired. I can easily carry a full sized 1911 in a IWB (inside the waistband) holster. During the summer when it is hot, I am known and prone to just be carrying a Kel Tec P32 w/pocket slipper laser in my back pocket.

Good luck in finding what you desire, and if you have any questions on specific handguns, feel free to post them either here or in the Handguns forum.

more info, thanks mike

Mike, Thanks for your input, I guess I should have given some info in regards to weapons preferences and such, eh? I have actually fired several other weapons owned by others, the Witness, a taurus 38 special, and a Para-ord Warthog (Carry-designed DA doublestck). To be honest I also owned a FEG 380 for a short time, but I was not happy with either its reliability (the magazine had a frightening tendency to be wiggled loose at almost any time) or my ability to hold it comfortably- was just too small. I'm tall, live in the hot and humid south 8), and of average build, could stand to lose a few pounds, so concealing my 1911 Llama was tough anywhere except IWB SOB/MOB- a place I'm uncombfortable carrying for how hard it is to get at easily standing, let alone sitting. It could be a problem with my rig, but I would like to explore other weapons in 45, as I'm going to keep my first weapon (its a gift, and I'd feel bad ditching it) so it just makes sense to me to stay in the same caliber for carry. I like your suggestion about trying out rentals, unf. theres no rental ranges in my neighborhood, but I think in the next city... Despite the KB problems I've read about on TGZ I'm interested in the glock 30 and would like to see how it feels firing it. The warthog I mentioned earlier was very hard to control to my mind, not a weapon I would choose to use in any manner other than spray-and-pray! Must be a holdover from my Marine training, but I prefer to make every shot count, so something I'm accurate with is important to me. Do you or anyone else have any thoughts about the G30? I'd love to hear from everybody and anybody- not seeking the 'right' answer but information, or alternate considerations to help focus my decision. Thanks again Mike, and to anyone else who responds!

good info and suggestions, keep em coming! Im takin notes

I've thought about revolvers, but I feel much better knowing I have those extra rounds at my disposal with an auto, even though I rarely carry an extra clip. while I probably won't buy one for myself, I'm considering one as a present for my sister, a S&W 642 I believe. Any thoughts on that as a lady's carry pistol? Speaking of DAO's, my grandfather suggested something of the like from Para-ord, but the one I fired (45 Warthog with normal loads) hit like a mule and my second shot even at 7 meters was always WAY off target. Whereas I'm at least consistently hitting COM with my 1911. Does anyone know if the DAO's are a bit easier to control than a super-compact like the warthog? I'm reticent about 357, I live in both a house and neighborhood with lots of family, pets, and collateral targets around, and something with as much penetration as a 357 makes me cringe. Maybe I don't know enough about it. But in the home I exclusively use those non-penetrating rounds for that reason in my 45. However I will definitely look into CZ's just to cover my options if nothing else. Thanks guys!
Oh and Tbeck- Thank you for that rating on the G30- and not to worry, I haven't reached the point of doing reloading yet, so all that goes into any of my weapons is factory. About the fully-supported barrel, would that void Glock's warranty?
Thanks to all, and to all one shot- one kill! Lol

Bryce --

The 642 would be an acceptable gun for concealed carry for a woman.
As to your original question, I hate be be vague, but with firearms alot depends upon personal preference. I have many handguns and carry quite a few different ones at different times. My main carry piece is a SigArms P239/40 that I carry in a Mitch Rosen Middleman Holster (OWB). In MY hands the Sig is a natural shooter and I can maintain multiple shots COM. I sometimes also carry a Para Ordnance C6/45 ParaCarry and my personal experience is that felt recoil is not objectionable. If you shoot your full sized 1911 fine, you may look into a "Commander" sized 1911 such as a Para P13 or a C7/45 (the 13 is double stack, the 7 is single stack) You may also want to consider a Smith & Wesson 4513TSW, a EAA Polymer Witness, Glock 30/36, Taurus PT145, Ruger P345 or Magnum Research Baby Eagle in 45ACP. The last list of guns are non-1911 guns in .45ACP.

If you cannot fire a gun before buying, I would still go to a gun shop and handle as many as they will allow you to. If a gun is not comfortable in your hand, then you do not want it. There are many guns on the market that I personally just don't like the feel of in MY hand. The original Kahr guns (non polymer) just feel to me like a steel brick!

O, Lawdy!

mikegunner said:

The 642 would be an acceptable gun for concealed carry for a woman.

I have many handguns and carry quite a few different ones at different times.

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There's a lot of excellent advice offered by MikeGunner in this thread, some of it distilled from lessons learned at CeePee's and my knee on the old Prodigy BB and Forum.

But as this is specifically TGZ's Forum, I am compelled to annotate and critique some of his commentary least anyone consider it TGZ's "official policy" or position.

1. The 642/S&W Centennial series of J-frame revolvers would be an acceptable gun for concealed carry for anyone, assuming, arguendo, that something larger is precluded by situation or circumstance. I have had one for years, the uncatalogued transitional Model 042, and it's my "Black Tie" gun (last worn as a primary PDW at my son's nuptials). It's an acceptable "purse gun" as long as it's secured in a fixed position within the containing accessory… consider the male corollary: a PDW worn on the belt which could be at any 360° position around the waist, and at any attitude or angle. There's no "fins" or "King's X" in a lethal force situation, so it's gotta be right where you reach for it without searching, fumbling, or "adjusting" in your hand as you make your presentation. (Remember the frequently shown clip of John Wayne as "Rooster Cogburn" telling Robert Duvall "Fill y-o-u-r hand, you sonuvabitch!" from True Grit… one's PDW must of necessity fill one's hand instantly and automatically… to borrow one of Chuck Taylor's favorite phrases… upon demand.[/*:yedx957m]
   
2. Most serious "practitioners" of defensive pistolcraft do not "carry quite a few different ones," even "at different times." While I have nowhere near the battery that Moderator Mike possesses, I'd say that in the past ten years I've carried as a primary PDW no more than three… four if one counts the LWS380 Seecamp which has been used to thwart "concert venue wanding" as it fits silently in the cleavage of a companion's front-closing underwire bra… different handguns: the aforecited Model 042 in an ARG or "pocket cozy," or my 90%-of-the-time "working gun" or in the extreme "Dog Days of August," my prized, Bill Laughridge-tuned 3913NL.[/*:yedx957m]

With the exception of the "Black Tie" application of the hammerless J-frame, all handguns are carried in the identical location in an ARG… exceptin' the li'l Seecamp which is carried in the same location in a Rosen beltslide.

In my never-quite-humble-enough view, the carrying of a bunch of different handguns as PDWs, is unsound and suggests an unfocused mind and a lack of commitment to personal security.

But then, as Patty Rogers sez, "What do I know?!?"

What I do know is that is TGZ's Forum and such advice does not reflect our thinking.

I whole-heartedly share, however, Moderator Mike's assessment of "the original Kahr guns" similarity to a "brick." (Or does he share mind? I'm never quite sure, but the first time I saw one at a SHOT in Texas and some colleagues of CeePee's and mine were waxing enthusiastic about it, but given it's weight-to-size ratio, I felt it would better serve as a fishing line sinker.)

Bryce… listen to your Gramps!

Re: O, Lawdy!

DeanSpeir said:

There's a lot of excellent advice offered by MikeGunner in this thread, some of it distilled from lessons learned at CeePee's and my knee on the old Prodigy BB and Forum.

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I will say that I have learned alot online not only from Dean and CP, but others on the *P SSBB and others. I may not get as verbose as Dean and sometimes that tends to make my points easier to mis-interpet or misconstrue.

I would agree with Dean on the not having to many carry guns for PDW. In the past 4 years my carry M.O. is to always have a Kel Tec P32 in my back pocket and on my hip either a Sig P239/40, Para P10/45, Para C6/45 or Glock 27. Unlike most, I have a indoor range at my personal disposal, so I am able to keep up practice on whatever I am carrying at the time. Being a FFL Dealer and a serious handgun collector, I have PLENTY of guns to choose from, but limit my carry to guns that I like the feel of and thus I shoot well.

There are plenty of points where Dean and I agree, and those that we have agreed to disagree, but that is what makes our online forums what they are... A good place to discuss things and get different opinions/viewpoints on a specific topic. I moderate the Handguns, Concealed Carry and Knives forums here on Amback and my opinions/postings reflect MY perspective/opinion and not those of TGZ, Dean, Charlie Petty or Rob F.

Mike

PS --- On the Kahr, I think it was an independent but mutual feeling. If I want a steel brick, I would buy a MKS/Hi Point and save over $400!!!

K.I.S.S.…

JRWnTN said:

I've watched shooters bring a case full of pistols to the range, such as 1911's, Glocks, S&W's, and switch between the various operating systems. Almost always, they have problems. Trying to find a thumb safety on a Glock, pressing the S&W's decocker down and wondering why it doesn't shoot, etc. These problems occur under no more stress than shooting while others watch.

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Amen!

I've learned a great deal from John Farnam over the years, but perhaps the two most compelling lessons have been to eschew full-length recoil-spring guiderods in Colt's/Browning pattern PDWs, and to simplify matters to the fullest extent possible.

Never was this brought home more clearly than one Sunday afternoon in 1991 at the old Pine Barrens/IRTC combat range when I assisted John on the back-end of a Defensive Pistolcraft/Urban Shotgun course and we had three students… two local ESU MOS and one civilian enthusiast… show up with Benelli Super 90 M3 "convertibles." It was at first amusing, and then downright discouraging, watching them either trying to activate a slide which had already cycled courtesy of the inertia recoil system, or stand there ineffectually yanking the trigger without having pumped in a new round. This wasn't one student, but all three… and to this day I'm not sure whether it was confusion on the part of the shooter, or, as seems to be the case on several occasions, the ring-locking device was inadvertently activated or disabled.

John and I concluded that this was a recipe for disaster, then quietly stepped behind a berm and shared a blood oath to never recommend this type of firearms. (The SPAS12 of Miami Vice/Hit Man notoriety employed a similar dual function.)

Re: O, Lawdy!

DeanSpeir said:

In my never-quite-humble-enough view, the carrying of a bunch of different handguns as PDWs, is unsound and suggests an unfocused mind and a lack of commitment to personal security.

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While I generally agree with this, and while I will readily offer the same advice to new shooters, I will just add that there is nothing wrong with mastering, and then maintaining proficiency with, a variety of firearms -- if one is willing to invest the time to do it right. This is especially true for the instructor who wants to be able to teach his or her students with their choice of PDW.

Of course, the bottom line is that one should practice and train with what one actually carries, as opposed to what one would carry in an ideal world. In an ideal world, I'd be carrying a 1911 or a midsized Glock regularly (FWIW, I have never tried to snick off the non-existent manual safety on a Glock, nor have I drawn and forgotten to depress the safety on a cocked & locked 1911). But I realize that, since I usually carry a small S&W revolver (and when afield, a big one), I make sure to practice regularly (both dry and live fire) with one or more DA revolvers with the same manual of arms. In fact, having signed up for a defensive pistol course this August with Rangemaster's Tom Givens, I have decided to shoot the course with a stock 3" S&W M13, though I know it would be easier for me to run the course with a 1911 or a Glock.

Now, if I can only convince Dean to use his Seecamp for the course. I'm sure he has 800 rounds of .380 in his ammo locker. :twisted: