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Discussion Starter #1
Cross reference: http://blogs.forbes.com/oshadavidso...-crowd-sourced-military-vehicle-is-unwrapped/

So in the spirit of DARPA experiments, crowd, please make suggestions to be incorporated in a M1911A2 military pistol, .45 ACP of course.

Note current military requirements include standard rail, laser grips and night sites. I suggest those be included.

Geoff
Who suspects those who weld up frame rails and recut to +/- .00001 inches would not understand the spirit of the exercise.:eek:mg:
 

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This was discussed by I believe Cadillac Gage in the fifties. One make did the chassis someone did the body and somebody else did the turret on a armored car. IIRC it was to a base modular vehicle with lots of adaptability. Much of the ancillaries were to be then off the shelf parts like radio, guns, seats etc. It was an attempt to counter the first BMPs I think.

I'll have find the story but the prototypes were significantly cheap but FMC Convinced the Congress that a wheeled carriage was unfit and thus the M113 project was born.

It seems we have evolved full circle with the Stryker.

As far as the 1911a2, there are lots more possibilities because everyone makes parts now. A Ruger frame with a Caspian slide, brown ignition, Novak sights, CT grips, kart barrel etc is almost going back to the original Eli Whitney concept of interchangeable parts.

I would keep the non ambi safety as no one has produced a battle worth ambi safety yet in my mind. I might suggest a ramped barrel as a way to reduce fitting and improve feeding.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Crowd sourcing. It depends on how you look at it. "Two heads are better than one." or "If nobody knows who tossed that line into the law, nobody is responsible for any of it."

Off the top of my head, I never would have thought about the light weight firing pin and spring combination. I know they exist, I think they are a good idea, but I just didn't think about it.

Geoff
Who fought the HP wireless, but did not win. Dagnabbit!
 

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"Crowd sourcing" sounds like "A camel is a horse designed by a committee". It's intended to be a slam against multiple input, until you stop and think about how much better a camel is than a horse in many circumstances...a camel isn't as pretty or nice as a horse, though...
The trick is having someone to keep the committee from entering a camel in the Kentucky Derby.
 

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I'll go with Mr. Coopers recommendations; A good trigger, sights you can see and a tight barrel. all else is accomodations.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Well, let's see:

1. Lightweight safety firing pin. No moving parts added.
2. Novak style Night Sites, need dovetails front and rear to make field replacement easy.
3. Laser grips, complicated but off-the-shelf item which is already in the system for the M-9, I know the grips are different, but the laser and switch is the same.
4. Apply Max/Min trigger pull gauges to keep the Small Arms Repairman and inspectors honest.
5. Accuracy requirements on the tight barrel?
6. Rail

Should the plunger tube be a separate piece, or cut into the frame like the Ruger?
Should the springs be stainless steel?
Should the frame be plastic or stainless or light weight alloy?
Should the frame be undercut behind the trigger guard to make the grip easier for smaller hands?
Does the safety and slide release need to be ambi?
What kind of finish?
Should we have 10-round and 8-round magazines?

Geoff
Who wishes he could afford a new .45.
 

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Wasn't the A2 an experimental Commander variant used in trials for an aircrew weapon back in the Fifties?
 

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The Commander got its start from an Air Force request for a lightweight 9mm pistol, back in 1948. The S&W M39 also came out of this program.
The only "M1911A2" I could find on Google was a 2004 Army program.
I came across this old thread (with pics), via Google.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5624
 

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By my way of thinking, the pistol is a back up weapon for almost every guy in a combat roll. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I'd think for that purpose, less would be more. If I were designing one. I'd want a fairly light trigger pull, decent sights (night sights would be good) steel frame to keep recoil down, flat mainspring housing for better grip. I personally don't have much use for rails, and I think I'd rather be pistol whipped with the gun than install a laser on it. haha.
 

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Comments embedded.
1. Lightweight safety firing pin. No moving parts added. I put a titanium firing pin in a 1911 and didn't notice a difference. I'm not sure the skeletonized hammer is much of an improvement over the Commander style Rowell hammer. Has anyone actually measured the difference in locktime between the different styles of hammers? It's a handgun full of engineering tolerances in the fit between the barrel, slide, frame and bushing. Can a millisecond of locktime make a difference in accuracy?
2. Novak style Night Sites, need dovetails front and rear to make field replacement easy.I've had enough fixed sight guns that shot different lots of ammo to different points of aim. I'm going to depart from the herd and say low profile adjustable sights.
3. Laser grips, complicated but off-the-shelf item which is already in the system for the M-9, I know the grips are different, but the laser and switch is the same.I wouldn't put a laser on a gun except for dryfire feedback in which case it can go on the rail.
4. Apply Max/Min trigger pull gauges to keep the Small Arms Repairman and inspectors honest.Three pounds is light enough. You don't want your adrenalin pumped pulse setting off the gun.
5. Accuracy requirements on the tight barrel? A high quality barrel that is properly fit to the frame and slide stop on the bottom and the lugs on top and the sides combined with a properly fit bushing will do more for accuracy than a tight slide to frame fit. The problem is finding someone who actually knows how to fit a barrel.
6. Rail I don't recommend hanging a light on a gun. The light makes the gun a target and the person holding the gun a backstop

Should the plunger tube be a separate piece, or cut into the frame like the Ruger? Separate, and it needs to be well polished on the inside so that the plungers operate smoothly during reassembly. On that note the slide stop needs to click into place with a minimum of fuss. I've handled guns that had slidestops fit so tight you needed the point of a knife to get the thing to drop into place.
Should the springs be stainless steel? No. Spring steel will last longer. I would say yes to a corrosion resistant grade of spring steel.
Should the frame be plastic or stainless or light weight alloy? Stainless
Should the frame be undercut behind the trigger guard to make the grip easier for smaller hands? Yes, and the gun should be manufactured so the grip escutcheons can be replaced for Hackathorn style grips and fitted with a short reach trigger.
Does the safety and slide release need to be ambi? I think it's a good idea but holster design needs to be considered. A gunsmith told me that a lot of people were inadvertently disengaging the safety while the gun was holstered because the ambi safety wasn't covered by the holster.
What kind of finish? Black oxide or bead blasted stainless steel. Anyone have experience with Robar or comparable coatings?
Should we have 10-round and 8-round magazines? I use eight round magazines. I've never handled a ten round magazine that didn't feel wrong in the gun.
 

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Not all that long ago... 05?... it was rumored that there was a solicitation for a .45 pistol from Uncle. I did not see it so this is hearsay but supposedly it would have looked a lot like an M&P or XD
 

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Not all that long ago... 05?... it was rumored that there was a solicitation for a .45 pistol from Uncle. I did not see it so this is hearsay but supposedly it would have looked a lot like an M&P or XD
I remember something similar. After that crew-served SOCOM .45 that HK put out there was interest in a "modern" .45 of manageable proportions.
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For a light, simple "last ditch" back-up pistol for troops, the Kel-Tec P11 (with the lighter PF9 lockwork perhaps) would be the way to go. Granted it's "only" a 9x19, but it is very light and compact, and has proven extremely reliable.
 

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I recall reading what was alleged to be the RFP for the new service pistol and the 1911 wouldn't qualify, being only single action.

Sights, field replacement of service sidearm sights is a non-issue. The Novaks aren't as good as others about one handed slide operation, lacking a real good hook for actuation.

While I have quibbles and gripes about some things noted, there are other issues that need addressed with the 1911 platform: larger trigger guard to make gloves easier and a safety that can allow slide operation while engaged. Frankly, I'd go for a DAO trigger action if this is a weapon intended for everyone.

Other issues: lasers be dammed, the thing needs a rail, ambi slide releases aren't necessary but can be done unobtrusively (see S&W M&P series), mag releases can be made reversible if not operable by the index finger.

In other words, the bar has moved since 1911, get over it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Some guys would want a DA trigger on an M-16/4 series.

Geoff
Who should have patented his DA trigger on a shotgun idea. Sigh.
 
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