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Discussion Starter #1
over a million civilian stops of crimes per year, using guns? Have you looked into the number of miscreants hit with bullets during such crimes? The number is well under 10,000 per year. :) So, if Kleck's number are accurate, not 1 time in 100 do you have to hit the bad guy with a bullet. He leaves at just the sight of the gun (ready in time). The NRA"s Armed Citizen column, every month, for many decades, always states (and provides examples) that many attacks are stopped by just the sight of a gun in the hand of a defender. Many more are stopped by shots fired that don't hit the bad guy, too.
 

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I don't know if you're trolling. You posed a question then provide the answer in your own post.

Kleck conducted a National Self-Defense Survey in 1994 and extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents in which victims used guns for self-protection. Below is a link.

Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun
 

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One of the most common anti-gunners trick statements is:
"You're X-number of times more likely to be shot with your own gun then you are to kill an intruder, so you shouldn't own guns".

The key words are "To kill an intruder".
The vast majority of defensive uses with a gun, the gun is never even fired, much less hits and kill an intruder.

Kleck has proven to be right, about 2.5 million times a year citizens use guns to stop a crime and most times no shots are fired.
Still, the number of criminals shot or killed by citizens is far higher then the number shot by the police.

I suspect a troll watch may be in order.
 

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Well, I've personally used a gun "in self defense" three times without ever firing a shot.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I am just pointing out that it is quite rare to need to do more than show a gun, with an appropriately determined looking demeanor. I've held men at gunpoint 4x in my life, and they all froze in place. The Annual Crime survey, on the Dept of Justice website, says that 2/3rds of all attacks are not made with guns, so if you get the gun visible to the bad guy, and still have a couple of yards or more of range between you, only the most desperate will 'try" you.

they all know that a bullet wound means either hospitalization or death from infection, and medical personnel all, by law, must report gunshotwounds to the cops. So, when confronted by somebody willing and able to shoot them, they almost always back down.

From Cirillo's book on gunfighting, 280 armed robbers were confronted by the NYPD Stakeout Unit, only 40 made the cops shoot them, even tho they were cornered and were facing very heavy sentences in a very bad prison. In actuality, even fewere would have been shot had they realized how deeply they were in the stuff. So, when the civilian is smart enough to leave the bad guy a way out, he takes it. If this were not true, nobody would be buying derringers. 25 autos, or mini-revolvers.

I've been an NRA life member since the late 70's, where were you? :) I was shooting IPSC matches back then, and could average under 5.5 seconds, all good hits, with a 1911 and ball duplication reloads. Where were you? This is the full 10 yds of distance, the full 3 yds edge to edge between the targets, the full 180 degree pivot first, a secure holster, and hands at shoulder height. I worked long and hard to be able to "apply the hammer" if it's needed, guys. 200,000 rds worth, actually, altho 1/2 were fired thru a .22lr conversion unit.
 

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If you want to doubt numbers, I've got another one for you: The statistic of 50,000 rounds fired per enemy KIA in Vietnam. (The very first time I encountered this trivium, over 30 years ago, the number was 5,000, but it seems to have grown and metastacized at 50K since then.)

50K? Really? This means that in, say, a company-sized engagement in which ten VC or NVA were killed, a half-million rounds were fired. How did they carry it all? :confused::confused::confused:

I think someone, somewhere, got hold of how much ammunition of all kinds the US bought during the Vietnam war (including ammo for training, storage, etc. worldwide) and divided it by the number of estimated enemy KIA. Make sense?
 

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If you want to doubt numbers, I've got another one for you: The statistic of 50,000 rounds fired per enemy KIA in Vietnam. (The very first time I encountered this trivium, over 30 years ago, the number was 5,000, but it seems to have grown and metastacized at 50K since then.)

50K? Really? This means that in, say, a company-sized engagement in which ten VC or NVA were killed, a half-million rounds were fired. How did they carry it all? :confused::confused::confused:

I think someone, somewhere, got hold of how much ammunition of all kinds the US bought during the Vietnam war (including ammo for training, storage, etc. worldwide) and divided it by the number of estimated enemy KIA. Make sense?
Lotta machine gun use for suppresive fire, not necessarily hitting anyone but denying them free use of the area .. ... .. .. .. . .
 

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Discussion Starter #8
My numbers are correct. You can google for them. I'm simply pointing out that all this "need" of superman speed of hitting, with heavy duty pistols, etc, is SWAT stuff, needed by maybe a few hundred cops in the entire US, once in an entire career. I have that sort of ability, but it's been decades since I thought it was necessary. It's just fun and an ego boost. which is all it is for you,. either. IF you actually have it.
 

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>>>> I'm simply pointing out that all this "need" of superman speed of hitting, with heavy duty pistols, etc, is SWAT stuff, needed by maybe a few hundred cops in the entire US, once in an entire career. >>>>>
Then what was the point of your "Bill Drill" post?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
bill drill is an "accepted" standard to go by, personally, I think that what you can do at 10 ft and 1 second flat is much more relevant for civilan defense, but everyone is chicken to move that fast, and too lazy to work at it. In 1 second, it's not that hard to react, draw from a front pants pocket rig, (starting with your hand on the gun) and hit the chest twice, at 10 ft. It's the sidestepping (very short steps) twice in that 1 second that make it difficult to get the hits, but which also make it very unlikely that the mugger can hit you.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
and do you

ask everybody else what is the point of THEIR posts, or are you just upset about MY posts, hmm?
 
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