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F35 or OV10D?
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I think -- as the article pointed out -- that in conflicts where the enemy has no surface to air threats, no radar, no air force, such as against ISIS, the OV-10 Bronco would be a very good plane to use. The F-35? Isn't it still experiencing teething problems? Plus even if it worked well, it's much too expensive for the Bronco type role against ISIS.
If we ever get it working right (and a number of people want it cancelled & I wouldn't argue to hard) we should use it where it would be needed most and do the most good.
Crop dusting is a possibility ......:cryinlaugh::cryinlaugh::neer::sm_angel: :bolt:
If we ever get it working right (and a number of people want it cancelled & I wouldn't argue to hard) we should use it where it would be needed most and do the most good.
Crop dusting is a possibility ......:cryinlaugh::cryinlaugh::neer::sm_angel: :bolt:
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Actually, I'd argue the F-35 does have a place in a mixed force: as a bridge between the F-22s and overhauled F-15s and F-16s as missile-trucks.
--F-22s as "golden bullets" for the highest-value targets/biggest air threats, and "eyes up front" sending data back to the other fighters
--F-35s as a data-bridge from the F-22s back to the older fighters, and for sniffing out and hitting more common but still dicey targets, maybe Wild Weasel Work
--F-15 and F-16 for general-purpose work
--OV-10X Super Bronco (whether new-build or remanufacture) and A-10 for CAS--the Bronco slots in nicely between Hogs and helos, and in the bargain can be used for expedient Medevac
Me, I would have done F-35 as a two-airframe design rather than three, though.
--Navy/AF anti-air/"heavy" big-wing version, Navy with beefier gear and AF with internal gun module
--Marine/AF CAS "light" small-wing version, Marine with Navy gear for rougher fields and STOVL, AF again w/internal gun
--F-22s as "golden bullets" for the highest-value targets/biggest air threats, and "eyes up front" sending data back to the other fighters
--F-35s as a data-bridge from the F-22s back to the older fighters, and for sniffing out and hitting more common but still dicey targets, maybe Wild Weasel Work
--F-15 and F-16 for general-purpose work
--OV-10X Super Bronco (whether new-build or remanufacture) and A-10 for CAS--the Bronco slots in nicely between Hogs and helos, and in the bargain can be used for expedient Medevac
Me, I would have done F-35 as a two-airframe design rather than three, though.
--Navy/AF anti-air/"heavy" big-wing version, Navy with beefier gear and AF with internal gun module
--Marine/AF CAS "light" small-wing version, Marine with Navy gear for rougher fields and STOVL, AF again w/internal gun
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Great silliness. The OV-10 was a joke given some form because of the great USAF USA air support compromise. It ended up oversize from the original concept and under powered.
Geoff
Who notes there are too many bureaucrper in the military and not enough warriors, especially after 8 years of disastrous missmanagement in Washington DC.
Geoff
Who notes there are too many bureaucrper in the military and not enough warriors, especially after 8 years of disastrous missmanagement in Washington DC.
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As noted in comments in the original article, the Tucano is being employed in theater as the A-29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_EMB_314_Super_Tucano
Embraer or a sub-company assembles the US version up at JAX, some of my customers worked there before I retired.
A twin-engined attack leader and FAC aircraft might make sense and using the old OV-10s out of storage might be relatively cheap.
If the USAF tried to do it as a new project it would end up costing $1 Billion per aircraft and be bigger than a 747. If the USAF gets involved with updating the OV-10s out of storage, I estimate the cost per aircraft at $100 to $500 million per aircraft, but don't worry the Air Force will prove it saved billions and billions, I'm sure.
Geoff
Who notes the estimated/projected cost of the .. well all projects the USAF has attempted in the last 68 years or so. Tankers anyone?
Embraer or a sub-company assembles the US version up at JAX, some of my customers worked there before I retired.
A twin-engined attack leader and FAC aircraft might make sense and using the old OV-10s out of storage might be relatively cheap.
If the USAF tried to do it as a new project it would end up costing $1 Billion per aircraft and be bigger than a 747. If the USAF gets involved with updating the OV-10s out of storage, I estimate the cost per aircraft at $100 to $500 million per aircraft, but don't worry the Air Force will prove it saved billions and billions, I'm sure.
Geoff
Who notes the estimated/projected cost of the .. well all projects the USAF has attempted in the last 68 years or so. Tankers anyone?
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The OV10D has a checkered past. The ATF some yoears back bought 22 of them from the Navy. ATF claimed they removed the hard points but who knows. One had the tail numbrer N472AW with the AW portion for American Warbirds, the ATF's secret air force.
When Congress learned of their actions, they ordered ATF to get rid of the birds or their $$$s would be cut off. The Broncos just disappeared.
FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry
When Congress learned of their actions, they ordered ATF to get rid of the birds or their $$$s would be cut off. The Broncos just disappeared.
FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry
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While there isn't any surface to air missile threat there could be a bunch of small arms on the ground. Anything low and slow can be hit.
Sounds like a job for the A-10. If the A-37 is still around another possibility or any fast mover with guns...
Sounds like a job for the A-10. If the A-37 is still around another possibility or any fast mover with guns...
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Slightly O/T.
One of my former roomies is a retired bunny cop; his dad a former Bird Dog driver.
I can remember stories about his taking fire from the ground in VN... and returning it with what he had onboard - a purloined 1911.
One of my former roomies is a retired bunny cop; his dad a former Bird Dog driver.
I can remember stories about his taking fire from the ground in VN... and returning it with what he had onboard - a purloined 1911.
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A fast mover with a load of napalm would work too. Then there are days you'd love to Puff come into view.
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The CAS problem remains. Cost vs performance. You don't want an F-35 anywhere near ground fire, too expensive and too vulnerable to a single hit. To deliver stand-off precision guided weapons, in a low AA environment, all you need is a C-130 with a ramp flying at 10,000 feet where it cannot be heard. There are targets you might engage with gunfire, .50 BMG and 20mm HE are cheap, but you risk the platform. The A-29 and OV-10 are usually noticed after they fire and are quickly gone, very useful and if the ground pounders trust the pilots/FAC crew, very effective. As the USMC will tell you, establishing that trust is not a small thing.
Geoff
Who was once, in his youth a Battalion AA Defense NCO.
Geoff
Who was once, in his youth a Battalion AA Defense NCO.
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The OV-10 was a very successful FAC aircraft, but that tells you something about it's firepower and survivability: it's primary role was to mark targets for the guys who could do serious damage.
All of this may be irrelevant for the immediate future:
U.S. Air Force Fires Up the A-10 Depot Line to Keep Warthogs Flying 'Indefinitely'
All of this may be irrelevant for the immediate future:
U.S. Air Force Fires Up the A-10 Depot Line to Keep Warthogs Flying 'Indefinitely'
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More recent A-10 news: https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20161106.aspx
Geoff
Who notes the guys on the ground love the A-10 and I was once one of those guys.
Geoff
Who notes the guys on the ground love the A-10 and I was once one of those guys.
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When the A-10 was in its final development stages there was an orientation film that made the rounds of Army and Air Force units showcasing its capabilities against tanks. One of the highlights of the film was a clip taken from the inside of a T-72 as a depleted uranium round hit it. Before the camera was destroyed the interior essentially became a vision of Hell, with a bright white-orange glow and molten metal spraying in every direction.
After one showing to an armor unit a soldier timidly raised his hand to ask a question:
"Uh...how much time do A-10 pilots spend on tank recognition?"
After one showing to an armor unit a soldier timidly raised his hand to ask a question:
"Uh...how much time do A-10 pilots spend on tank recognition?"
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That might explain why my youngest switched from Armored Cav to Air Cav.
It is quite unlikely that the small wars against terrorist forces are going to end anytime soon. Sure ISIS is on the ropes, but no doubt there are a half dozen other groups just waiting in the wings to take their place. It makes no sense to spend $40k per hour flying against forces that have no air defense weapons, so why not buy a few Super Tucano’s to fill that niche?
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Because of the "golden BB". The golden BB is the one round of small arms fire that takes out a critical system and brings an aircraft down. The golden BB is one of the reasons the A-10 is designed the way it is, with titanium armor around the cockpit, high rear-mounted engines, and two (or more) of everything. A-10's have shrugged off multiple small arms hits and still brought their pilots safely home.
A Tucano flying around with a single turboprop and little armor is only cheap until the multi-aircraft rescue mission begins.
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As my old prof "LTC Norm" once explained Golden BB Theory as applied in Nam:
"Somewhere out there each of us has a bullet with our name on it, and if that's bullet's fired it WILL get you even if it has to come all the way around the world to do it--but until it's fired you're unstoppable."
"Somewhere out there each of us has a bullet with our name on it, and if that's bullet's fired it WILL get you even if it has to come all the way around the world to do it--but until it's fired you're unstoppable."
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How fast can an A-10 be put back into the fight, given the shortages of spare parts?
According to some pilots from WWII in 1945 it was easier to get a new aircraft than repair parts, even with canibalization, an extravagance we are unlikely ever to see again.
Geoff
Who notes they can change an engine pod quickly, but they have to have a replacement ready.
According to some pilots from WWII in 1945 it was easier to get a new aircraft than repair parts, even with canibalization, an extravagance we are unlikely ever to see again.
Geoff
Who notes they can change an engine pod quickly, but they have to have a replacement ready.
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In the immortal words of "Willie and Joe" "I prefer a foxhole that doesn't attract so much attention."That might explain why my youngest switched from Armored Cav to Air Cav.
Geoff
Who notes his brother spent a career sitting on a nuke target marked by a pair of two mile long slabs of concrete.
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