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Discussion Starter #1
So, I'm part of the alpha for a particular computer game that's striving for accuracy in how it depicts weapon handling, and we have a Keyboard Kommando trying to argue that it won't be complete unless it has Hollyweird Dual Wielding, and I need some help putting together an Expert Opinion Backed rebuttal.

Here's what I'm up against (warning, LONG!):
And even if the person in the first vid is a pro, [this is Jerry Miculek's dual shoot, and idjit seems to believe that just because JM can do something anybody can] you want to say that nobody else could do it? Or do you just want to state, that the accuracy for less experienced gunners is lower? Because that I would agree, but that doesn't allow the conclusion how much lower it is.

Actually you can't infer from one person to any other person. That means, that there could be a lot of people better dual wielding than others shooting with one gun and vice versa.

But what does that mean for the game if dual wielding is implemented?
At first it means, that there shouldn't be any additional disadvantages for dual wielding in comparison to a single gun, besides the obvious ones, that come with the technique. That just punishes those who want to use it, with no real argument in favor for the additional disadvantages. For example if you say that dual wielding means higher fire rate and therefore the reload time has to be incresed. That's no valid argument, or you could say the same about a machine gun. It also has a higher fire rate and therefore has to be made worse, too?

If you press the button for releasing the magazine with your hand holding the weapon you want to reload, while at the same time reaching for the new magazine with the other hand and putting it in, the time for reloading would be the same for dual wielding.
Only that you can't fire with the other gun of course. That has to be accepted.

Now the recoil. Of course if you are firing with one gun you are having the same recoil, until you are using your second hand to support your weapon hand. That's not possible while dual wielding, therefore the recoil should have a stronger effect while dual wielding in comparison to firing a single handed weapon with 2 hands. That would be the "aiming mode" I think, where you are looking through the sight, while supporting your weapon hand with your off-hand.
But if you are running around in normal mode firing, then the recoil should have the same effect for the same gun either while dual wielding or firing with one gun in one hand.

And at last, the accuracy. Of course the best accuracy you have while using your sight in "aim mode" with one weapon. But if you are firing in normal mode, then the accuracy is and should be the same with a single weapon or two weapons dual wielding. Because, what's your argument if you say it shouldn't be that way? The only reason why people are better hitting with one weapon (exactly where they want to hit) is because, they are aiming using the sight. Therefore if you are just pointing your weapon in front of you and shooting your accuracy is as bad or good as when doing the same while dual wielding. And that's just represented by the normal mode of the FPS.
And then there is the aming mode for dual wielding, were you are not just pointing your guns in front of you firing, but are raising them up to your eyes trying to aim a little bit by looking through the center point of the two guns.
That mode is of course less accurate then the real aim mode, for a single gun, where you aim with a sight and because of no support for your weapon hand the recoil leads to a lower firing rate.
But, and here is an interesting factor, if there are gun mounted lasers (the laserpointers fixed to weapons), which should be implemented (because they are not only cool, but very usefull for aiming and realistic), then accuracy doesn't depend on the sight anymore and dual wielding would get a big boost.
The disadvantage remaining would then be, the higher recoil in comparison to one gun supported by the off-hand.
And additionally higher risk to be seen from enemies, du to the laser.

But now comes an interesting question for all you naysayers, who would want to complain, that dual wielding would be "too good" then. Do you also want to remove all other weapons being "better" than a single pistol? Machine guns for example? They have a much higher firing rate than dual wielded pistols and their recoil is managable, because the off-hand is used for support.
What I've got so far...
My point is that certain things require a lot of variables to all fall in the right pieces--while I could do something approximating a dual-wield, the SWAT officers I was shooting with were unable to do so in the same trials. They are, however, more accurate in single-iron single-target action than I am. Even then, I was still only actively firing one gun on one target at a time, it was just a much faster transition between my left and right targets, and this was greatly facilitated by a particular quirk of how my eyes work that where most people have their strongest visual acuity dead ahead, mine is concentrated more into the "peripheral vision" zones to the left and right of that.

Recoil in a Dual Wield should also be stronger than even a one-hand single, because there's a trick called interlimb response where you get more strength in one hand when you tighten the other up into a fist at the same time--noted law-enforcement and personal-defense firearms instructor Massad Ayoob wrote about in several of his books, including Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry, and Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob.

Massad Ayoob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In a nutshell, IF they do Guns Akimbo or Gun Kata or any other Silver Screen Dual Wield technique, they need to be realistic about it and have accuracy tank accordingly. And MOST of what you see in movie and TV gunfights, if you tried it for real you could expect to be fitted for a black rubber bag real quick.

Bottom line, when CIG configures the FPS module, they really need to bring in someone with real-world firearms experiece, preferably actual COMBAT experience, to advise them rather than rely on a bunch of random forum members--I would consider even my own professional experience less than the amount desired for my job, and between line of duty and self defense I have been legally carrying a sidearm every day for over a decade.
Couple videos I plan to refer Schmuck to:

Anybody have any ideas to contribute? I'd really like to cite sources on the level of "this person was an expert before your Internet Kommando ass was even BORN," but...
 

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Well it's simple...Worldwide search, in the last 75 years, find just ONE organization, military, Law Enforcement, private, or otherwise that trains people to wield a handgun in each hand. That tells the story right there.

There may be the one in a million who does it. But you will NEVER find someone wielding two handguns who shoots faster and scores better than a well drilled man with one handgun. Simple as that.

ETA - I can think of a grand total of ONE man in the past 100 years who could use two handguns to greater effect than one and that's Ed McGivern. And when you look at the accomplishments of Ed McGivern, you'll quickly realize that he was a complete freak. No one has ever done what he could do with a sixgun; EVER. Sure Mickulek has matched his speed shooting record, but I'm talking about Mc Givern's point shooting, and aerial targets (5 dimes thrown over his shoulder) with either hand. So there's a grand total of ONE man in the past 100 years, and I'm betting he's the only one ever.
 

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Diamondback, I'm reminded of the old adage:

"Never argue with an idiot; [fill in the metaphor of your choice]."

You're trying to respond to this guy with logic and reason, but I fear that his armor of asininity is impenetrable.

Go with this: "Great suggestion! We have indeed included Dual Wielding; it becomes available to the player at an as-yet unachieved level of proficiency. Good luck!"
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The funny thing is, this is primary a "Space Combat" game with FPS components for boarding ships and ground-combat, trying to fuse FPS, flight sim and MMO together into something totally new.

Thanks, guys. :) Thinking I'll just contact the Devs directly by their forum messaging system and not fight with Trollzilla.
 

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The funny thing is, this is primary a "Space Combat" game with FPS components for boarding ships and ground-combat, trying to fuse FPS, flight sim and MMO together into something totally new.

.
While I've got no clue about what FPS & MMO mean, I'd love to see that under conditions of no gravity-assuming the boarding action to take place off planet.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
LOL First Person Shooter (Doom, Quake etc) and Massively Multiplayer Online. There's some Zero-G stuff planned, but somehow they're handwaving artificial-gravity.

Yeah, I got roped into the Star Citizen hullabaloo--even if the Promise/Deliver ratio ends up only where its designer's previous project Freelancer was (and even though it wasn't delivered as all it'd been conceived as FL was still a pretty successful game), it's still gonna be a heckuva ride.
 

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LOL First Person Shooter (Doom, Quake etc) and Massively Multiplayer Online. There's some Zero-G stuff planned, but somehow they're handwaving artificial-gravity.

Yeah, I got roped into the Star Citizen hullabaloo--even if the Promise/Deliver ratio ends up only where its designer's previous project Freelancer was (and even though it wasn't delivered as all it'd been conceived as FL was still a pretty successful game), it's still gonna be a heckuva ride.
I did beta for M1 Tank Platoon and a few other Microprose sims as well as some of the Harpoon titles.

Good times - but a lot of hours I don't seem to have anymore.
 

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I did beta for M1 Tank Platoon and a few other Microprose sims as well as some of the Harpoon titles.

Good times - but a lot of hours I don't seem to have anymore.
I loved Harpoon, that was some fun stuff there. Lots of great scenarios. I loved playing the Russians and taking out a US Carrier group. One thing I learned in that game, anytime the Russians want to, they can turn one of our Carrier groups into slag. But they'll pay a very high price to do it.
 
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