[Javlin]

A fella on another forum totally unrelated to guns acquired this rifle just recently after his father passing.The father got this rifle back in the 50's(?) and never shot it so it looks.It has some markings on the stock that seem familiar but not,the CSA got me wondering.I think the having the box adds itself to the rifle lending credibilty to an offical arsenal rebuild?

 

[TommyGunn]

RRA= Rock River Arsenal? Don't know what the CSA is unless it's inspector's initials -- I doubt that it means Confederate States of America. Not on an WW2 gun!
A great many M-1 carbines were rebuilt at the end of WW2. Although many probably needed it, they also had changes that were done. A adjustable rear sight replaced a "L" shaped flip rear sight and a front barrel-band with a bayonet lug were two items that were added during the final months of WW2.
Also a round bolt replaced a flat-top type. Not all carbines received all these new parts.
I have a 1944 marked Inland trhat has the early flip "L" type rear sight and the type 2 barrel band without the bayonet lug and the flat top bolt.

Nice gun by the way.

 

[Javlin]

Thanks Tommy.What's your thoughts the box is still present? I thought that was a nice piece of whats the word starts with a "P" :dunno: brain lapse.....providence that the word ......


The fella mentioned the area in front of the markings a number was removed viva a wire bruxh maybe?

 

[stand watie]

Javlin; TommyGunn; All,

"RRA" is the "old" stamp for RED RIVER ARSENAL, which currently is called RED RIVER ARMY DEPOT, in Bowie County, TX. - RRAD is about 18 miles west of Texarkana, TX off I-30.
("RRAD" is the "new stamping".)

Fwiw, I was born/raised about 50 miles from RRAD, KNEW many people who worked there and have looked (without success) for a M1 Garand that was actually "built" there from "new parts", during the Korean War period. = The late Dick McWright told me once that he owned a "NEW RRAD Garand", but I've never SEEN a NEW one.
(MANY thousands of Garands, carbines, TSMG & 1911 pistols were rebuilt there, starting in 1941, as well as MANY thousands of motor vehicles & other Army items.)

In 2013, the PRIMARY "product" of RRAD is rebuilding HUMVEES & MRAP.
(The radical LEFTIST "DIMocRATS" in the government have repeatedly tried to close RRAD & LONE STAR ARMY AMMUNITION PLANT, so far without success. = The "DIMocRAT extremists" really HATE Texas and Texans!!!)

yours, sw

 

[TommyGunn]

RED RIVER Arsenal!

Shoulda knowed that!
John Wayne would be spinnin' in his grave? (Anyone get the reference? )

 

[Ratfink2u]

RED RIVER Arsenal!

Shoulda knowed that!
John Wayne would be spinnin' in his grave? (Anyone get the reference? )

Waaaaaaaaa! Great flick with Walter Brennen..

 

[Javlin]

Tommy you could be right might be the Armourer's mark.I found this though it deals with M1 Garand it makes a note about marks.

EB:Elmer Bjerke was promoted on January 6th, 1947 to Forman of small arms inspection at Rock Island Arsenal. He was responsible for the final inspection of new and overhauled small arms. He served in that capacity until 1958. All small arms inspected under his supervision bear the markings "RIA" for Rock Island Arsenal and "EB" for Elmer Bjerke.

Frank Krack was Assistant Foreman of the Inspection Division at Rock Island Arsenal from September 17, 1941 until he retired on July 19th, 1946. During that period all small arms inspected under his supervision would be stamped with his initials "FK" as well as those of the Rock Island Arsenal "RIA

Arsenal overhaul and inspection stamps

Now if I can find out who was in charge of RRA in from WWII to 1960 might be his initials?I have another thought the the gun came in a RIA box must of been how things were sold to the public you know central store front to say?

 

[Javlin]

Found this ...

Anniston Arsenal: AN
Agusta Arsenal: AA
Benicia Arsenal: BA
Mt. Rainer Ordance Depot: MR
Ogden Arsenal: OG
Raritan Arsenal: RA
Red River Arsenal: RRA
Rock Island Armory: RIA [EB] or RIA [FK]

San Antonio Armory: C-SAA
Springfield Armory: S.A. or S.H.M
Standard Products STD, PROD, RWH
Underwood .U.
Credit Scott Duff and Larry Ruth

M1 Carbine

 

[dfariswheel]

What you have is a Carbine that was bought from the US Army Director of Civilian Marksmanship, (DCM) program in the late 50's or early 60's.

This was a US Army administered program to provide surplus firearms and ammo to people who might be potential recruits in time of war.
They also provided rifles and ammo to gun clubs that were affiliated with the DCM program and ran a junior shooters club.
Obviously the idea was the juniors would be drafted into the service when they turned 18 or older.

The DCM was run out of an office in Washington with a US Army officer "in command" with all civilian workers.
Rifles and ammo were sold only to NRA members.
When rifles or ammo were surplussed, a notice was put in the American Rifleman magazine telling you what was available, and you sent in an application.
It was first come first served.
Rifles and ammo were shipped from whatever arsenal had them available when your application was processed.

The DCM was replaced by the current Civilian Marksmanship Program, (CMP).

Carbines were primarily shipped from Red River Arsenal, and were shipped in the early days by REA Express, later by UPS.
I got my Carbine in 1965, shipped via UPS.
It came in a similar box, cost was $20.00. That was $17.50 for the Carbine, $2.50 UPS shipping.

Carbines were in "serviceable, safe to fire" condition, and were almost always Carbines that had been rebuilt or upgraded during their service time.
When a Carbine was put through an official rebuild program, the arsenal doing the rebuild stamped the arsenal ID stamp on the stock. If it was put through two rebuild programs, the second re-builder added their stamp.
There were no inspectors stamps added to Carbines after they were manufactured, only arsenal stamps for official rebuilds, so CSA is not an inspectors stamp.
If a Carbine was just repaired while in service, Ordnance put no stamps on them, since it wasn't an official rebuild program.

A DCM Carbine with the original arsenal shipping box would have high collector interest. The box makes it worth much more, and if you have the shipping documents that would add even more.
The documents were considered "Proof of sale" from US Government to civilian ownership.

 

[Javlin]

There were no inspectors stamps added to Carbines after they were manufactured, only arsenal stamps for official rebuilds, so CSA is not an inspectors stamp

So is it a second rearsenal then?for San Antonio maybe?I found a site showing a stock hit twice.

Thanks Dfariswheel for the input I was thinking 2nd rebuild was just about to email Stan see if he could get me some history on RRA.By the way put your post so the fella could read with your credits thanks again

 

[stand watie]

Javlin; All,

SAN ANTONIO ARSENAL marked their rebuilds, "SAA". Some, after 1935 (including my US Rifle 1917 or "US Enfield P-17"), were marked "SAAD" (SAN ANTONIO ARMY DEPOT), for Lend-Lease to the UK.
(SOME of those 1917 rifles were "marked" with a red, white & red stripe around the stock so that service-members would NOT try to fire .303 British ammo in the P-17.)

NOTE: My "returned from British Home Guard Service" P-17 was evidently never "striped" but WAS "bored out" to allow .303 British BULLETS to be loaded into US cases.
(It shoots cast loads beautifully & and is THE most accurate rifle that I own.)

yours, sw

 

[Javlin]

Notice though Stan it's listed C-SAA..I am thinking it went CSA or SAA depending on the time frame just a thought.Stan that is one I have been wanting to p/u an Enfield.I had a chance on one 15 years ago faded red stripe on the stock w/bayo; shot beautifully $800 had it appraised was a fair price.I do not know how but some funds disappear out of the account .....wife

 

[stand watie]

Javlin,

There supposedly was an "A" & "B", too, though I've never seen anything but a "C-SSA".

yours, sw

 

[dfariswheel]

One way to get more info is to contact Bruce Canfield.
He's THE expert on American military arms and is an editor for the National Rifleman. He usually has an article in the magazine every month or so.
I'm sure he can tell you all about the stock stamps.

You can contact him on his web site:

Bruce N. Canfield - Gun Collector, Gun Collections, Author, Collector, and Historian of post-Civil War U.S. Military Weapons

If he won't respond there, if you're an NRA member (and shame on you if you aren't) as a member service, you can send a SASE with ONE question to the American Rifleman Dope Bag and they will answer the question.