[Azrael]

This same story was a hot topic of debate on THR several weeks or months ago...I dont remember which...HOURS AND HOURS of sniffing glue will do that to your short term memory..


IMHO it is simple these days to have something like this happen..From a business standpoint it makes sense....The Strausberg (sp?) goat tests prolly sold alot of Mag-Safe ammo even though it is doubtful that it even occured...Most of the time people want someone to do there thinking for them..not to think for themselves...that is what advertisment does for the masses..And this story is nothing more than advertisment....


 

 

[Dean Speir]

The Strausberg (sp?) goat tests prolly sold alot of Mag-Safe ammo even though it is doubtful that it even occured...

So you are dubious as to the bonafides of the Strasbourg Tests?

And exactly why would that be? I'm always interested in how people come to any conclusions about "The Goat Papers."

 

[Azrael]

Mr. Speir,
Dubious is a better term to use when it comes to my feeling's on the Strasburg Goat Test's...

They may have happened...

BUT:

1..When I first heard about the test's several years ago, the first thought that went through my head was "That's alot of F'N goats!!"...

2..If the test was as scientific as it is purported to be, then where is the paperwork?? A test this gruesome(sp?) would have an evergreen forest worth of papers to go along with it...I havent seen any..."Bonafides" is a nice word...I havent seen any...I have seen the "Goat" test's quoted as gospel in the gun rags before, but lets just say that I am "dubious"..

3..I guess my biggest "gripe" with the test, is how much it sets off my BS meter...I mean, several HUNDRED Goats?? that are all the same size? Weight?? I just dont see it..


Please note..

The above post was written by someone that sniffs VERY strong glue for a living..please take that into consideration

 

[Sarge]

Count me among the doubters...

I am always a little leery of anything that sell lots of gun rags, but never shows up in the more technical media aimed at government agencies.

Jan Libourel ranted about the big goat-shoot for awhile, but sort of dropped the subject thereafter. I always wondered if there was any documentation to support this supposed event, and if it exists it is the best-kept secret in gundom.

It also goes against what I have seen in the field, having killed or been in on a fair number of deer kills with various handguns.

 

[Dean Speir]

Mr. Speir,
Dubious is a better term to use when it comes to my feeling's on the Strasburg Goat Test's...

They may have happened...

BUT:

1..When I first heard about the test's several years ago, the first thought that went through my head was "That's alot of F'N goats!!"...

2..If the test was as scientific as it is purported to be, then where is the paperwork?? A test this gruesome(sp?) would have an evergreen forest worth of papers to go along with it...I havent seen any..."Bonafides" is a nice word...I havent seen any...I have seen the "Goat" test's quoted as gospel in the gun rags before, but lets just say that I am "dubious"..

3..I guess my biggest "gripe" with the test, is how much it sets off my BS meter...I mean, several HUNDRED Goats?? that are all the same size? Weight?? I just dont see it..

Please note..

The above post was written by someone that sniffs VERY strong glue for a living..please take that into consideration

1. It's "Dean."[/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
2. Yup! Over 600 of 'em![/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
3. The "paperwork" I received in May 1993… that's how long ago it was… was pretty scientific to this lay mind. It was admittedly a précis, or abstract, of the fuller work, but that's the only thing of which I am aware which has even "gotten loose." And my understanding is that it wasn't supposed to.[/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
4. "Dubious" is always good for openers… skepticism is very healthy, and an attribute I value most highly… it's the very basis of the Critical Thinking toward which CeePee and I have long-exhorted our fellow Members both here and on the Prodigy services before AmBack. (As an aside and not for nuthin', but "Speir" in the original Scots means "one who questions."[/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
5. In studying the Strasbourg abstract, one thing immediately stood out, and it took me exactly two 'phone calls to track down one of the underwriters of the tests, and a third call to discover where they probably occurred.[/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
6. While the first printed reference to "Strasbourg" I could find occurred in one of the Combat Handguns annuals in late '92, after I authored a two-parter, "The Goat Papers," in Gun Week in Spring '93, the major exposure came in the form of a virtual reprint, with some self-validating annotations, by my friend Evan Marshall that Summer in Petersen's Handguns. (The text of that article was pretty much reprinted as a chapter in the second Marshall-Sanow volume.)
   
   The big problem arose when Editor Jan Libourel included, for reasons which have never been satisfactorily explained even when one of our Members here wrote Jan directly on the matter… I don't remember the year… in the caption to the lead photo, the information that the tests took place in France! He is the "only one" who ever even suggested that they did, and after that publication hit the stands, I went back to my original and fine-tooth combed it for any such clue! Jan is a very bright guy, Rhodes Scholar, etc., but I still think he punted that one big time.[/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
7. Over the years the late Darrell Mulroy and I argued long and bitterly about Strasbourg, he attacking the validity of the purported tests, and me attacking Darrell for misrepresenting the information so his brief could hold water. (The same thing occurred six years ago with another of the Members here, IWBA-member Shawn Dodson, who was then carrying water for Fackler… he authored a savage denunciation of Marshall, Sanow and Ayoob. Originally, he resorted to bashing Mas for things that Mas never wrote, but finally, he seems to have corrected that disingenuity.)[/*:qmbxd9dd]
   
8. While I am not carrying any sort of banner for Strasbourg, I have never seen their validity successfully discredited… anywhere! On the other side of the issue, it took me a very short time to learn that not only could they have taken place, where they probably took place, and that there exists a not-so-secret basis for the origins of such a test protocol: the "final exam" for Special Forces AEMT accreditation consisted of shooting a goat, and the candidate having to keep it alive while getting it back to a "base-camp," between a 1½-to-3 day exercise. My source on this, of known and proven quality, further informed me that SF was forced by outcry from the PETA-people to publicly end this program, but suggested that it was still on-going because it was the best test they'd devised.[/*:qmbxd9dd]

So I've satisfied myself as to the Strasbourg issue, and until someone… and I likely know who it would be if it ever happens… comes forward and says, "Had you, didn't I?," I'm sticking to my story… "Strasbourg" is what it is, a study of the effects of various handgun projectiles in goats who have been lung-shot. That's all it purports to be, and no one… not Lt. Col. Martin L. Fackler, MD, USA (ret.), not Evan Marshal or Ed Sanow, and certainly not Jan Libourel or Shawn Dodson… can make any other claim for it!

Hell, even the late Joe Zambone, whose MagSafe enterprise most benefited from the publication of "Strasbourg," said "If you're ever attacked by a 160 pound goat, by golly, MagSafe seems to do the job."

 

[csmkersh]

Strasbourg is a city in the Alsace region of France. Not my favorite place.

I remember how wound up Darrel would get when the subject of goats and guns came up. He was absolutely convinced it never happened. All I know was that BAMC here at Fort Sam did goat tests for a different reason years back. They needed live trauma patients to train MASH doctors on meatball surgery and couldn't ask for human "voluteers." Word leaked out and the ARFs forced the practice to stop.

 

[Azrael]

Mr. Speir,

SIX HUNDRED GOATS!!! Wow!!!!

Again I will say it...THATS ALOT OF GOATS!!!!!

Although I lament the death of so many animals, I am sure that at least SOME of the goats had it comin!!

Wonder why he, (Jan Libourel) said that it occured in France?? That has been one of the things that is slammed on so many message boards over the years...

I am among the very few to have been attacked by a goat (dont ask!)...Tuff little buggers...


IF the Strasberg test's were conducted as has been reported, were they a direct result of the FBI's continuing search for the "perfect" handgun round??

 

[csmkersh]

"Mr. Speir" again? Azrael is either a little slow on the up-take or POed with you, Dean. :?

Wonder why he, (Jan Libourel) said that it occured in France?? That has been one of the things that is slammed on so many message boards over the years...

Oh, he's slow on the up-take. Say fellow, read my post just above your last one. I plainly stated Strasbough is in the Alsace region of France. The tests took place when France was still a NATO member in good standing, IIRC.

 

[Azrael]

the "MR" is me being polite...nothing more...polite discourse need not degenerate into a flame way..

where was i?? hmmmm

OHH yea,

<Oh, he's slow on the up-take. Say fellow, read my post just above your last one. I plainly stated Strasbough is in the Alsace region of France. The tests took place when France was still a NATO member in good standing, IIRC.>

yes I read your response...I was talking about something in DEAN'S post:< The big problem arose when Editor Jan Libourel included, for reasons which have never been satisfactorily explained even when one of our Members here wrote Jan directly on the matter&#8230; I don't remember the year&#8230; in the caption to the lead photo, the information that the tests took place in France! >

I was wondering WHY someone of Libourel's standing would make such a statement...

 

[csmkersh]

Dean, I think I sit this dance out for a while. He reminds me of jumpy.

 

[Charlie Petty]

I don't know why this would come up again after all these years, but the original report sure looked like junk science to me.

One very interesting point is that a story that ran, IIRC, in "Handguns" under Evan Marshall's byline was a verbatim copy of the original "report" with only spelling and grammar corrections made.

 

[TBeck]

yes I read your response...I was talking about something in DEAN'S post:< The big problem arose when Editor Jan Libourel included, for reason which have never been satisfactorily explained even when one of our Members here wrote Jan directly on the matter&#8230; I don't remember the year&#8230; in the caption to the lead photo, the information that the tests took place in France! >

I was wondering WHY someone of Libourel's standing would make such a statement...

It was probably late 1993. The article was in one of the Petersen publications, HANDGUNS, I think. I don't think Mr. Libourel actually said the tests were conducted in France but it was strongly implied. It was also implied that the tests were conducted by a military entity.

I wrote the letter to HANDGUNS asking why a European military trial made such extensive use of non-military calibers. (The test results pretty much ran the gamut from .380 ACP to .45 ACP, with most popular cartridges represented.)

To my surprise, the letter was posted in a later issue along with Jan's response. He replied that the tests were conducted "a lot closer to the Potomac" and stated that the identity of the institution conducting the tests was concealed to protect it from protests by animal rights groups.

US Army Special Forces was the conclusion I drew, also based upon the "Goat School" anecdotes mentioned by Dean above. I had also heard the stories about goats used as final exams for SF medics, but I heard them a couple years prior to the publication of the test results.

The results were interesting but hardly shocking. Care was taken to shoot the animals in the lungs, avoiding the ribcage and heart. Not surprisingly, frangible bullets did the most damage to the highly vascular tissue and resulted in the incapacitation of the goats marginally faster than hollowpoints. Did it "prove" that frangibles are the best choices for self-defense? Not really. Too many other factors were controlled out to draw that conclusion in my opinion.

 

[SpecialEd]

In studying the Strasbourg abstract, one thing immediately stood out, and it took me exactly two 'phone calls to track down one of the underwriters of the tests, and a third call to discover where they probably occurred.

So where did they "probably occur?

Ed

 

[Dean Speir]

IF the Strasberg test's were conducted as has been reported, were they a direct result of the FBI's continuing search for the "perfect" handgun round??

It's "S-T-R-A-S-B-O-U-R-G," damnit!

They had absolutely nothing to do with the FBI, although I daresay that whoever circulated that abstract to Quantico (Bill van der Pool, Charlie?), might have wished to influence the Bureau's thinking.

And yes, Sam, "&#8230;he's slow on the up-take," but I don't think he's another "Jumpy."

One very interesting point is that a story that ran, IIRC, in "Handguns" under Evan Marshall's byline was a verbatim copy of the original "report" with only spelling and grammar corrections made.

And&#8230; the addendum of the correlation between the Strasbourg results and the Marshall-Sanow "empirical data."

I don't think Mr. Libourel actually said the tests were conducted in France but it was strongly implied.

O, no, Trav&#8230; it was quite matter of factly stated "which took place in France" in the caption to the primary photo accompanying the article.

To my surprise, the letter was posted in a later issue along with Jan's response. He replied that the tests were conducted "a lot closer to the Potomac" and stated that the identity of the institution conducting the tests was concealed to protect it from protests by animal rights groups.

Yeah, that surprised me as well, because it make me realize that he'd been following some of the same tracks that I had back in '93.

I had also heard the stories about goats used as final exams for SF medics, but I heard them a couple years prior to the publication of the test results.

My SF guy told me that they'd been doing it for years before the PETA-people raised a big fuss.

So where did they "probably occur?

Doncha think that if I'd've wanted to share that information, you wouldn't've had to inquire?

For the record, let me restate: the Strasbourg Tests are what they are, and nothing more. Accept them, ignore them, or discredit them based on what the abstract states. If you need to parse the abstract in order to discredit them, then you haven't got a case.

 

[Sarge]

I got attackted...

by a pygmy goat one time.... had just pulled into a rural driveway to serve an arrest warrant when the little bastoid charged my brand-new 93 Chebby po-leese car, reared up on his teeny little hind legs and scratched the also brand-new pin-striping and sheriff's star decal on the driver's side door! I thought about shootin' the little scuz but since the window was down already I settled for punching him in the top of the head. Their knobby little horns are hard on knuckles, and the lady of the house (who had walked up to get the goat) set up a howl when I swatted him. This did get everybody out of the house, including the miscreant I had come for. Damn thing tried to butt me again when I was cuffing him, too, and got booted in the slats. Made for an interesting report...

Do you know they actually had the gall to complain about that? So while I never believed much of the scientific goat-gunnin' accounts, I must say that I DID enjoy reading them.

 

[Charlie Petty]

And&#8230; the addendum of the correlation between the Strasbourg results and the Marshall-Sanow "empirical data."

It did strike me as a bit self-serving

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The "paperwork" I received in May 1993&#8230; that's how long ago it was&#8230; was pretty scientific to this lay mind.

I reckon I could fabricate a convincing "study" using the report "Remote Cerebral Effects on EEG in High-energy Missile Trauma" (Journal of Trauma, Supplement, January 1988) as a guide. The Strasbourg Tests "preliminary report" is remarkably similar in method and materials.

The same thing occurred six years ago with another of the Members here, IWBA-member Shawn Dodson, who was then carrying water for Fackler&#8230; he authored a savage denunciation of Marshall, Sanow and Ayoob . Originally, he resorted to bashing Mas for things that Mas never wrote, but finally, he seems to have corrected that disingenuity.

Not sure what this is about. I don't know what I allegedly corrected.

I compared Ayoob's published claims about the 1986 FBI-Miami shootout to French Anderson's "Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight". I concluded: "The whole purpose of this distasteful exercise in nitpicking all these falsehoods is to point out, in excruciating detail, the substandard quality of research these gun writers perform. These are the same gun writers who explicitly pronounce that 'the laboratory ain't the street,' and that their 'street effectiveness data' are more accurate in showing which bullets work, and which bullets don't. It is obvious from this review that they have problems getting their facts straight."

Charlie Kelsey, in a telephone call to me a few months prior to his murder, was absolutely convinced Delta Frangible was directly involved in The Strasbourg Tests.

For the record, let me restate: the Strasbourg Tests are...

Unproven

 

[SpecialEd]

Doncha think that if I'd've wanted to share that information, you wouldn't've had to inquire?

Well considering the propensity for name-dropping and insistence on validation, documentation, listing ones sources, etc.,...

So far we have: One writer says France. Same writer says it was not France but closer to the Potomac, Another writer says I know where but I'm not telling you...

I'm just waiting for the tired, "I could tell you... but then I'd have to kill you."

Ed

 

[Dean Speir]

Well considering the propensity for name-dropping and insistence on validation, documentation, listing ones sources, etc.,...

Name-dropping? Are you talking about cites and research?

Another writer says I know where but I'm not telling you...

Specific cite, please.

 

[SpecialEd]

[*]In studying the Strasbourg abstract, one thing immediately stood out, and it took me exactly two 'phone calls to track down one of the underwriters of the tests, and a third call to discover where they probably occurred.[/*]

Doncha think that if I'd've wanted to share that information, you wouldn't've had to inquire?

I see the problem, I omitted the word probably.

Ed