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Discussion Starter #1
HI, I just returned from the class. I used my P2K as my main handgun and fired 3K rounds from it in 3 days. The class was Mas Ayoobs advanced instructor class. The drills were constant and no time was given for cleaning between them. I had aboulutely NO malfunctions. I used 4 mags, and all drills were 6 round drills with fast reloads for a total of 18-24 rounds per drill. Mas wants his peple to be able to speed reload and the P2K is VERY fast.
That is NO malfunctions in 3K rounds during this class.
Last month I attended Tom Givens advanced Instructor class and fired 1500 rounds from the same handgun, again, no malfunctions.
My gun is a LEM with a trigger job from Bill Springfield so it has a very fast reset.
This is my ideal for a defensive handgun.
 

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I don't think I've fired 3K rounds this year.

I feel... inadequate... :)
 

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I doubt I've fired 1000rd in the past several years!!!:(
 

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Walt: I know what you mean...have they got a little blue pill to compensate for lack of time and money?

Pete: Yeah, that deep crouch position...they'd have to hook me to an engine hoist to get me back up. Oh, and I'm awful fond of my Model 49, too!

Threefeathers: Sounds like you have a very fine firearm in your P2K. And I surely envy your training experience. But I don't envy having to load all those magazines!
 

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Terry, When I saw that photo, I immediately thought of you! Thankfully, my joints are still pretty good, but a crouch that deep would definitely slow me down if I needed to MOVE! If I need to get that low, I'd go for a kneeling position. I also remembered how you like the idea of carrying your Model 19 on duty.
 

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IriahCop;shep854,

fwiw, i went to the academy so long ago that we were taught that whenever possible to take a kneeling/sitting SUPPORTED position, from a covered/concealed location & fire ONE "center of mass" SINGLE-action round to END the confrontation.
(for most LEOs, the patrol-car body/engine block is your best cover out on the street.)

i'm a LOT older & slower now but i still think that that is the proper thing to do do IF you can accomplish that, without putting yourself in greater danger.
(fwiw, i can get up from a kneeling/sitting position FASTER than from a deep crouch, if only by rolling.)

it is further NO secret to the "oldtimers" here, that i think that a .38/.357 revolver is what "street officers" should be armed with, with SA allowed ONLY if the LEO can prove to a superior that they are FULLY COMPETENT with them.
(all too many officers today "quality with the Model M-1 pencil". = when i was "on staff" at the academy in the mid-1970s, we had LITTLE trouble qualifying MOST officers in 2-3 days & the remainder in 5-7.)

"spray & pray" doesn't "get it" with me.

just my opinion,sw
 

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IriahCop;shep854,

fwiw, i went to the academy so long ago that we were taught that whenever possible to take a kneeling/sitting SUPPORTED position, from a covered/concealed location & fire ONE "center of mass" SINGLE-action round to END the confrontation.
(for most LEOs, the patrol-car body/engine block is your best cover out on the street.)

i'm a LOT older & slower now but i still think that that is the proper thing to do do IF you can accomplish that, without putting yourself in greater danger.
(fwiw, i can get up from a kneeling/sitting position FASTER than from a deep crouch, if only by rolling.)

it is further NO secret to the "oldtimers" here, that i think that a .38/.357 revolver is what "street officers" should be armed with, with SA allowed ONLY if the LEO can prove to a superior that they are FULLY COMPETENT with them.
(all too many officers today "quality with the Model M-1 pencil". = when i was "on staff" at the academy in the mid-1970s, we had LITTLE trouble qualifying MOST officers in 2-3 days & the remainder in 5-7.)

"spray & pray" doesn't "get it" with me.

just my opinion,sw
SW, all I can speak for is my department. The rank and file actually have to put holes on paper with bullets to qualify...BUT the standards are so low (70% on a 50 round course using a standard "Q" target, a hit anywhere inside the silhouette counts) that it's just not an insurmountable challenge. Now, the upper echelon...no comment.

We are currently trying to change department policy by raising the passing score, going to a more realistic and challenging course of fire. A big argument we get from the guys and gals is that the department, for the last 4 or 5 years, is only qualifying once a year and provides no training ammo.

Money is an issue for both the department and our deputies. We have more than a couple of young deputies with families that qualify and receive food stamps. A few boxes of ammo a year could well be a hardship for them. I mean, you gonna buy bullets, or your kids shoes, school supplies, clothes? Damned shame.

And our operating budget seems to get cut every year. A sign of the times I suppose.

I'm still restricted in mobility, so I'm limited in options. But I guarantee they'll find I've shot to slide lock...;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Most of you guys know Mas looks at this forum and most of us know him. The class had so many 'older' folks because this class gives Senior Instructor status to those who get through it. David Maglio was very careful in who he allowed in it.
 

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IrishCop,

PITY that you department is in that BAD of financial shape. I'm VERY sorry for your troubles!- luckily, i never worked for an agency with severe financial problems.
(i also never had an "ammo supply problem", in that i was an ARNGUS-TX commissioned officer & we got ALL the handgun/M-2 ball/7.62NATO/shotgun ammo that we wanted to carry home.- we were supposed to return the brass, but i was finally told to "not bother with that". - i was once GIVEN a "broken pallet" of .45ACP & was told to "get rid of this stuff, will ya'll?". - as i had a friend who was a Constable & who owned a Thompson M-1 SMG, we had a GREAT TIME on the SO range & made "new friends with" a host of highway patrol troopers, game wardens, DUSM, DEA folks & at least 2 Postal Inspectors.=====> a Thompson is just PLAIN FUN to shoot & that ROAR attracts "company", when you fire a burst or three.)

yours, sw
 

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Just how do most departments set their standards?
Here in FL there is a state qualification standard, BUT in some smaller counties / cities there is a higher standard required by insurance writers. I only brushed up against that one when a department was getting their folks qualified and then they had to do it twice a year rather than the previous once.

Geoff
Who needs more range time. Sigh. Bad year.
 

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Until Terry mentioned money, I was going to suggest his department touch base with the Shelby Co, AL Sheriff's Office. From what a deputy has been telling me, they get tons of training--but if the finances just aren't there...:(

I did make it to a range last night, with a bunch of friends. Didn't get to shoot much, for coaching some novice shooters, but watching their faces light up after shooting was as much fun as my own trigger time!!:D
 

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It is all about the funds, and what the priorities of the budget planners are.

We are, unfortunately, under a Federal Consent Decree reference our jail as a result of a lawsuit. A very LARGE portion of our budget funds the jail. Now the jail actually produces "income", in that we house federal prisoners and are compensated for those costs, and municipalities who use our jail are also charged a fee. Unfortunately, it doesn't cover operating costs. Our jail has a staff of about 120 officers, a number mandated by the Decree and based on X number of officers per prisoner.

We have 51 sworn officers, counting the Sheriff and Chief Deputy.

As always, personnel is probably the largest part of any organizations budget.

Toss in lower tax revenues, higher gas prices, etc. Pennies are being pinched.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I spoke with Vicki about this issue for you guys and ran it by Mas. We taught the inter-agency programs at Ft Huachuca for several years. The Army has run out of funds for this so we teach local LEO's and Military for the cost of the range and equipment. If you guys will just pay our expenses Vicki, Me, or either one of us will come to you. All we want is transportation, a place to stay, and cheap meals.
BUT this has to be only Deployable military and/or LEO's. I will do this for the two day intensive class only as it is what the M P's on post call the Big Boy Class.

So get your folks, have a poker game for funds, and buy 700 rounds of ammo for each student.
 

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I spoke with Vicki about this issue for you guys and ran it by Mas. We taught the inter-agency programs at Ft Huachuca for several years. The Army has run out of funds for this so we teach local LEO's and Military for the cost of the range and equipment. If you guys will just pay our expenses Vicki, Me, or either one of us will come to you. All we want is transportation, a place to stay, and cheap meals.
BUT this has to be only Deployable military and/or LEO's. I will do this for the two day intensive class only as it is what the M P's on post call the Big Boy Class.

So get your folks, have a poker game for funds, and buy 700 rounds of ammo for each student.
Threefeathers, thank you for generous offer! I will bounce this around Monday. Our guys are in desperate need of your services. I will do my best to make this happen!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Try to get a gunstore to auction off a rifle, we are excited about doing this. I guarantee Mas and Marty will support this.
 
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