I have read a lot, tryed a lot and seen a lot of home protective mesures, i still remain firm in the belief that a short barreld shotgun is still the answer, think about it, it takes minimul skill to operate the action of a double barrel or pump shotgun, they can use non leathal rubber buckshot, tear gas, ect...or full house 3" magnum 00 or 000 buckshot (i still maintain bigger is better... and a face full of thirty caliber lead bullets...) possible the biggest selling point for me is a short handy shotgun is one of the most powerful guns in the world...forget "lack of penatration" with hollow point 9mm, 45's what ever, even a .454 Casull pales in comparason of the engery of a 3" magnum load of 000 buckshot...blow the guy right into the next centry...or how ever long it takes to scrape his carcess off the celing...also, the mere sound of that shotgun's action being worked and a round chambering had ended more than one fight when the bad guys relise too late that they have beed suddleny outgunned in the extream...how about that for an article Guns & Ammo? 9mm Vs 12 Gauge? but thats just what i think is ideal for a home defensive weapon. oh, the brand shotgun? A Mossberg 500A with an 18 inch peep sigh and tinium dot front sight...this particular scatter gun aslo doubles as my weekly trap shooting gun....($100 garage sale special verses a $2300 beretta whitewing...mine wins on price alone!)
Home Defensive Ordnance
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I'm starting to think that a $300.00 AK pattern rifle beats a $300.00 scatter gun every time (and is even way ahead of the custom units I have had built).
Lower recoil
Faster to load
Reliable
Way more accurate
Single projectile, and...
You still get a very menacing cycling noise.
If you have ever been to a shotgun class at Gunsite, T. R., etc., you probably could come to the same conclusion I have.
I know the shotgun is a highly revered piece of Americana and the AKM is a "commie's" assault rifle but I think that even Doc Holiday would agree. The Kalashnikov is a better fighting tool :shock: .
Lower recoil
Faster to load
Reliable
Way more accurate
Single projectile, and...
You still get a very menacing cycling noise.
If you have ever been to a shotgun class at Gunsite, T. R., etc., you probably could come to the same conclusion I have.
I know the shotgun is a highly revered piece of Americana and the AKM is a "commie's" assault rifle but I think that even Doc Holiday would agree. The Kalashnikov is a better fighting tool :shock: .
well, simple math, single .30 caliber FMJ projectile, or nine .30 cal lead round balls....plus at "across the room" ranges, unless your shooting #8 birdshot the spread is not going to be much...acculy i use #8 for the first round up the pipe in my scattergun, gives a little bit of a buffer zone, and if that ominous cycling noise fails to get their attention a blast of #8 (arguably a tad less fatal than 00 if you got winged by two or three pellets) cirtanly will!
my father and i agree....that the sound of a pump action shotgun action being racked, a lever action rifle's action being cycled or a Single action revolver being cocked...all quite intimadating!
my father and i agree....that the sound of a pump action shotgun action being racked, a lever action rifle's action being cycled or a Single action revolver being cocked...all quite intimadating!
"If you have ever been to a shotgun class at Gunsite, T. R., etc., you probably could come to the same conclusion I have. "
if i rember right Jeff Copper stated that the range of a correctly set tactical shotgun is 125 yards with slugs. up to 30 yards with 000 buckshot, 25 yards with 00. and 20 and under, with any birdshot up to #7's. at point blank range (under 2 yards) any shot size will work well.
plus, a pump gun is not in the AWB, and, (at least the mossberg and browning actions ive handled) function 100%, as long as you dont do something dumb....like load a shell backwards in the magizine....
(honest....it wasent me!)
if i rember right Jeff Copper stated that the range of a correctly set tactical shotgun is 125 yards with slugs. up to 30 yards with 000 buckshot, 25 yards with 00. and 20 and under, with any birdshot up to #7's. at point blank range (under 2 yards) any shot size will work well.
plus, a pump gun is not in the AWB, and, (at least the mossberg and browning actions ive handled) function 100%, as long as you dont do something dumb....like load a shell backwards in the magizine....
(honest....it wasent me!)
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Glen, agree with the fighting designation. But for home defense, I'll take a shotgun simply due to the versatility in ammo selection.
Hard to argue with a firearm that can either take bear, birds or bad guys with a simple change of loads. Harder yet to argue against a firearm that can "safely" serve for HD in an apartment or a ranch.
Fights? AR/AK/M1A gets the nod.
Hard to argue with a firearm that can either take bear, birds or bad guys with a simple change of loads. Harder yet to argue against a firearm that can "safely" serve for HD in an apartment or a ranch.
Fights? AR/AK/M1A gets the nod.
One other the thing for "after the fact".I ,personally,would MUCH rather be scrutinized by the police & DAs' office for having defended myself with a shotgun,even an evil black one vs the AK type rifle.
After all,I would expect to have to play to an anti's tune.ie I use a shotgun to hunt ducks,what practical use is an AK?
You know what I mean?
After all,I would expect to have to play to an anti's tune.ie I use a shotgun to hunt ducks,what practical use is an AK?
You know what I mean?
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1,298 Posts
NMH Syndrome
Glen's post birings up an interesting point: how many shooters suffer from NMH (Not Made Here) Syndrome?
I can't say that I do; I've owned guns made in Austria, Germany, England, and Switzerland, as well as numerous USA brands. But I do tend to like USA guns more....1911s, S&W DA revos, and Ruger SA revos fill my bills for handguns, Remington does nicely for shotguns, and Savage, Springfield Armory, and a few other USA companies make everything I want in rifles.
As to AK vs. shotgun, I think the AK wins every time. It's as near 100% reliable as is humanly possible, even when badly maintained, and for a fighting gun, that's EVERYTHING. However, there is the "PC factor" to deal with in the modern-day reality of life in the USA, so I would reserve any AK use for a SHTF scenario. A housebreaker in MY house will be treated to a Trapper in .45 Colt and a Colt 1991A1 in .45ACP.
(Me to DA: "Shucks, it's just a little cowboy carbine, and it's chambered for the same pistol cartridge as the old Colt PEACEMAKER.")
Glen's post birings up an interesting point: how many shooters suffer from NMH (Not Made Here) Syndrome?
I can't say that I do; I've owned guns made in Austria, Germany, England, and Switzerland, as well as numerous USA brands. But I do tend to like USA guns more....1911s, S&W DA revos, and Ruger SA revos fill my bills for handguns, Remington does nicely for shotguns, and Savage, Springfield Armory, and a few other USA companies make everything I want in rifles.
As to AK vs. shotgun, I think the AK wins every time. It's as near 100% reliable as is humanly possible, even when badly maintained, and for a fighting gun, that's EVERYTHING. However, there is the "PC factor" to deal with in the modern-day reality of life in the USA, so I would reserve any AK use for a SHTF scenario. A housebreaker in MY house will be treated to a Trapper in .45 Colt and a Colt 1991A1 in .45ACP.
(Me to DA: "Shucks, it's just a little cowboy carbine, and it's chambered for the same pistol cartridge as the old Colt PEACEMAKER.")
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Re: NMH Syndrome
Ed
That's an interesting point Richard. I have no problems with European guns. It's kind of like sports cars, it's almost a status symbol. But I get a funny feeling when I'm looking at Norinco because it's Chinese (political) and the Philippine guns because they seem cheap. I want to get a Makarov sometime in the future and feel no political restraints there but buying Chinese really bugs me. I guess it's personal mindset.Richard Jefferies said:
Ed
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Not to be a curmudgeon but...
I think everyone is oversimplifying this by jumping on either bandwagon and not metioning a handgun.
It seems to me that "home defense" should really include all three. Here's why
Most true home defense situations develop in seconds giving us little or no warning or opportunity to go get a gun. For many the thought of keeping a loaded long gun beside the bed or easy chair may not be an option and you can't call time to go get something when the dirbag kicks down your front door.
Most people who are really serious about this have a handgun on their person at all times and can use it to fight their way to a long one (quoth Clint Smith).
It is surely true that the sound of a shotgun racking is ominous but if the dirtbag is in the middle of an adrenalin dump- as are you- the principle of auditory exclusion comes into play and neither of you will hear it... nor the subsequent shots should they occur.
Long guns make great handles and if you don't take him out with the first shot the dirtbag (I really overuse that word) can take advantage of it to fling you hither and yon. Long guns also serve to decrease the distance between you and your assailant at a time when increasing it would probably be better.
When the stuff hits the fan we fall back to whatever training we've had. How many have practiced getting the bejesus scared out of you and then trying to perform some simple operation like racking a shotgun or throwing the bolt on a rifle?
Everyone's situation is different and if there are no social prohibitions to having a loaded gun in every room then this is of little concern but most people can't do that.
I said that there was a place for all three types of firearms so handguns are probably easiest for the first line of defense. There is much to be said for 9 thirtysomething caliber projectiles at close range but don't believe the myth that, "you can't miss with a shotgun." Oh yes you can!
I like the idea of a handy rifle for dealing with threats that are outside the house.
I think everyone is oversimplifying this by jumping on either bandwagon and not metioning a handgun.
It seems to me that "home defense" should really include all three. Here's why
Most true home defense situations develop in seconds giving us little or no warning or opportunity to go get a gun. For many the thought of keeping a loaded long gun beside the bed or easy chair may not be an option and you can't call time to go get something when the dirbag kicks down your front door.
Most people who are really serious about this have a handgun on their person at all times and can use it to fight their way to a long one (quoth Clint Smith).
It is surely true that the sound of a shotgun racking is ominous but if the dirtbag is in the middle of an adrenalin dump- as are you- the principle of auditory exclusion comes into play and neither of you will hear it... nor the subsequent shots should they occur.
Long guns make great handles and if you don't take him out with the first shot the dirtbag (I really overuse that word) can take advantage of it to fling you hither and yon. Long guns also serve to decrease the distance between you and your assailant at a time when increasing it would probably be better.
When the stuff hits the fan we fall back to whatever training we've had. How many have practiced getting the bejesus scared out of you and then trying to perform some simple operation like racking a shotgun or throwing the bolt on a rifle?
Everyone's situation is different and if there are no social prohibitions to having a loaded gun in every room then this is of little concern but most people can't do that.
I said that there was a place for all three types of firearms so handguns are probably easiest for the first line of defense. There is much to be said for 9 thirtysomething caliber projectiles at close range but don't believe the myth that, "you can't miss with a shotgun." Oh yes you can!
I like the idea of a handy rifle for dealing with threats that are outside the house.
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Charlie wrote:
The best gun for self-defense is the one you can lay your hand on at the time you need it.
There it is. I adopted that long ago, even before I ever heard it attributed to Clint. The pistol on my hip will serve to get me to my long gun, IF I need it.
The best gun for self-defense is the one you can lay your hand on at the time you need it.
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I dunno RAJ, I watched a small guy take a .22LR to the chest and wander around, knew another guy who took a 5.56 burst and stayed in the fight. Still like that "rat hole" effect when it comes to HD.
My concerns from life experiences is the entering, leaving or answering the door.
For me - my primary HD is one of my CCW guns.
As far as a long gun - gimme a shotgun. I have a LOT of trigger time on a SG. A pump is very reliable , versatile, and a variety of ammo.
I stoke mine with slugs only. They work from contact to "out yonder".
For me - my primary HD is one of my CCW guns.
As far as a long gun - gimme a shotgun. I have a LOT of trigger time on a SG. A pump is very reliable , versatile, and a variety of ammo.
I stoke mine with slugs only. They work from contact to "out yonder".
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Racking the slide of a pump shotgun is frightening for the vast majority of miscreants. 5 rounds of 12 ga./000 buckshot works for that small minority who are not so easily intimidated.Charlie Petty said:
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