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Ok, I pretty much teed that one up for you...
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Amen to that.
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To All,
I wonder if there are any military weapons still in regular use by an armed force or LE agency that are as old as the 1911 Colt's pistol??
yours, sw
I wonder if there are any military weapons still in regular use by an armed force or LE agency that are as old as the 1911 Colt's pistol??
yours, sw
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In the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties I don't remember a craze for the 1911 the like of which we're seeing today. I am at somewhat of a loss to explain the resurgence.
I try to think back to the last part of the twentieth century and ask myself why I wasn't at all interested in a 1911, and what I seem to remember from those days is that Colt's had a virtual lock on production, and quality was underwhelming while price was steep. I know that the rise of alternate manufacturers like Kimber and Springfield Armory had a lot to do with it, but I wonder what made those companies so prescient as to realize that if they built decent 1911's, the demand would follow.
Ten years ago the 1911 was completely off my radar; now, I own a small stable of 'em...and I know I'm not alone.
I try to think back to the last part of the twentieth century and ask myself why I wasn't at all interested in a 1911, and what I seem to remember from those days is that Colt's had a virtual lock on production, and quality was underwhelming while price was steep. I know that the rise of alternate manufacturers like Kimber and Springfield Armory had a lot to do with it, but I wonder what made those companies so prescient as to realize that if they built decent 1911's, the demand would follow.
Ten years ago the 1911 was completely off my radar; now, I own a small stable of 'em...and I know I'm not alone.
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Charlie will probably have some enlightened views on the subject but I wonder if the seed wasn't planted in Miami, 1986?
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The Miami Shootout had more to do with poor training and tactic than the iron the agents carried. IIRC, and Charlie would know for sure, but I think they were carrying 9s and .38 Specials as well a pump 12s. But when you lose your glasses and handgun during a rolling felony stop the caliber if your gun matters little.
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Yeah the weapons performed as designed and contrary to all the hoopla, so did the ammunition. Turns out there's such thing as a highly motivated individual who knows how to shoot...and apparently they can be hard to put down, and can do some serious damage when it all hits the fan.
But I think there certainly can be a correlation between Miami and the move toward autos. Seems after that incident most LE agencies were finally catching on that the days of the revolver were numbered, and auto pistol demand went through the roof.
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Charlie's AAF quotes SSA John Hall, Chief of the Firearms Training Unit at Quantico as stating: "All things aside, Miami was an ammunition failure." Because of Miami, the FBI held a Wound Ballistics Seminar and eventually settled on the S&W 10mm autos. There's a quote in there somewhere re: 'you can have any caliber as long as it starts with a 4.'
Since the Feds always led the way and many other agencies tended to follow their lead, I would imagine many of them went with the caliber and gun a lot of them had prior experience with, the good ole GI.45. (I'm just speculating with that last paragraph.)
P.S. I'm not arguing whether or not it was an ammunition failure(though I believe it factored in) but if it was perceived as an ammo failure, which lead to LEO agencies adapting bigger calibers, then that leads back to my first assertion that the seeds of renewed popularity in the 1911 may have been planted in Miami.
Since the Feds always led the way and many other agencies tended to follow their lead, I would imagine many of them went with the caliber and gun a lot of them had prior experience with, the good ole GI.45. (I'm just speculating with that last paragraph.)
P.S. I'm not arguing whether or not it was an ammunition failure(though I believe it factored in) but if it was perceived as an ammo failure, which lead to LEO agencies adapting bigger calibers, then that leads back to my first assertion that the seeds of renewed popularity in the 1911 may have been planted in Miami.
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Reborn? I wasn't aware that interest in the 1911 was ever sick, much less dead.
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The 1911 is a gunfighter's gun. A pistolero of skill doesn't need a lot of rounds on target, just one or two well placed ones that make sufficiently sized holes.
And the gubmint model happens to be the most efficient dispenser of same.
We've simply come full circle.
And the gubmint model happens to be the most efficient dispenser of same.
We've simply come full circle.
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Mas used to preach and may still do that 2 .45s cause less legal problems than 9-14 rounds of 9mm.
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Ammo failure played a role in stopping Platt (Mattox was stopped quite well). It was much less a failure of the ammunition than having the right selection criteria. After all, the maligned 9mm Silvertip did in fact perform exactly as designed.
As for the killing of Dove and Grogan. Well Dove just exposed himself to fire, not making good use of cover and concealment and got caught. Grogan who was easily the most proficient man with a gun in the whole engagement was blinded by losing his glasses very early on. That, and his choice to stand where he was and fight it out blind, rather than running for cover were the reasons he died.
It was mostly tactics that cost lives. Agents insistence on using handguns when shotguns were available, and exposing themselves to fire. But ammunition selection did play a role. However, I personally believe had every agent been using a modern handgun with modern ammunition, the end results would have been much the same.
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I really think the large level of competition in the 1911 market, along with the aftermarket support is why the 1911 is now more popular than ever. The buyer can have pretty much anything he/she wants right out of the box.Reborn? I wasn't aware that interest in the 1911 was ever sick, much less dead.
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Once again, I'm not arguing whether it was an ammo failure or a tactical failure or if it was due to their biorhythms or astrological sign. My assertion/question was did Miami have an affect on the resurgence of the 1911? Regardless of the cause the FBI immediately started to focus on caliber again then adapted a 10mm auto, etc., etc., etc.
But was it the tail wagging the dog? Did better and cheaper 1911s drive the resurgence or did the resurgence drive the market, for better and cheaper guns?
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While I abhor supply side economics, I really believe this was a case of the supply side driving the market. Demand had been there for at least a decade before the industry was really able to respond.Once again, I'm not arguing whether it was an ammo failure or a tactical failure or if it was due to their biorhythms or astrological sign. My assertion/question was did Miami have an affect on the resurgence of the 1911? Regardless of the cause the FBI immediately started to focus on caliber again then adapted a 10mm auto, etc., etc., etc.
But was it the tail wagging the dog? Did better and cheaper 1911s drive the resurgence or did the resurgence drive the market, for better and cheaper guns?
Once GOOD 1911's from other makers became more available at lower than Colt's prices, and also incorporating more modern features, I think the buying public responded. Much of this has to do with what Kimber did by incorporating more modern manufacturing to create a "better" 1911 at a lower price. CNC, MIM and investment casting all combined to make a really nice 1911 at a fraction of the cost of full customs. Soon other makers jumped in when they saw the success that Kimber had and I believe (just my opinion).
Sure there was demand and Kimber was responding to demand, but Kimber was also driving the demand by pre-determining the features, and Kimber was WAY late in meeting the demand. It wasn't until someone used modern manufacturing technology to its best advantages that the market really opened up. So I personally think it was a technological breakthrough with manufacturers providing more to the public for less cost. So even though you can't have any success unless there is demand, I contend it's supply side because it took so long to meet the demand.
Just my view of 1911 macro-economics.
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Working on memory which is often faulty. The Miami Shootout failure was blamed on the ammo. The FTU boys started working with a hotter round and decided the 10mm was magic. They also decided the average agent just didn't have the ability to handle 10mm and downloaded to what is now known as the .40 S&W.
Hope my memory isn't too faulty here.
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