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DavidE,

What makes you think that it was UNINTENTIONAL on the part of BHO & the FAR LEFT?

yours, sw
 

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Discussion Starter #3
SW - Sadly, I wonder about that. I mean, it could be they are just pompous and overconfident without the skill to back it, but the end result isn't that much different.

There is no reason the movers and shakers out there should not have seen this possibility. The EU may have been pressing the Ukrainians forward (And their efforts did not get a Russian military response, even when the President there made a deal for new elections, until the mob ran him out despite the agreement) but they should have known given the Georgia events a few years ago that this was possible, and whatever the US Administration was doing they should have been able to tell the EU. Unless the Obama Administration was completely detached from it, which may be true. The height of the idiocy was a couple days ago, when the Secretary of Defense advocated cutting Army troop numbers and the A-10 wart hog in one press conference on the same day Susan Rice (Yes, she of the Benghazi video infamy) was walking out to warn the Russians not to invade in another one. Followed a couple days later by a warning to them not to invade from the President himself, after they had already invaded.

There seems to be no EU or US preparedness in any way as far as forces in the region, logistics, or any plan to arrange them in time to do anything. (For what it is worth, I heard reports that the Poles were advising the Ukrainians to stand down after Yanukovich agreed to the election, they were apparently the only ones who figured this could happen and were telling the Ukrainians.)

The real mind blower is that Tom Clancy predicted this kind of scenario in his last book, I guess no one at the EU or in the Administration read it. They should have. In that one, even with pre-positioned assets and trained personnel it was a near run thing to even save the western part of Ukraine.

NATO as an entity has not even been mentioned in any news coverage that I have seen, except by Former UN Ambassador John Bolton when he goes on TV. He says a proposal to join NATO should be offered to the Ukraine, but could they hold out long enough for it to go through? The main thing I am taking away is that the Europeans are doing one thing, and we are doing another. It makes me wonder if the united NATO command structure is being used or not. Even Clinton went to NATO for a command structure when the Yugoslav problems came up in the 1990s.

Also, without forces in the region or a suitable plan at this point, going in half cocked could lead to disaster. This situation demands extreme competence, and I hope someone on our side has it. I haven't seen it in evidence yet. The main thing Russia wants is the ports in the Crimea, historically. Will they go for more? It depends. Right now the curve favors them, and they have a window to decide what to do next and how far to push it. International objections have not had much effect.
 

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I'm gonna crosspost a couple things I tossed up over at RedState...

Am I the only one having flashbacks to History class? Specifically the Sudetenland in 1938, a big chunk of Czechoslovakia that was dominantly ethnic-German...

Oh... minor difference. ISTR that the Sudetenlanders didn't particularly WANT a change of management, but Mustache Twerp decreed "wherever there's a German there is Germany" and somehow got lucky enough to have a spineless incompetent like Neville Chamberlain across the table. Hmmm... yet another parallel to today.

By that logic, since it's apparent that he believes the same thing re Russians and Russia as Hitler re Germans and Germany, it's only a matter of time before Comrade KGB Scumbag Overdue for an Ace of Spades tries to claim the various Little Odessas in our towns as "Russian soil"... time to start learning to read Russkie rank insignia and brushing up on the long-range rifle training. (Simple logic: if your doctrine starts with Disrupt Command & Control, that means take out the enemy's officers, senior NCOs and any other likely leaders first.)
And then in another discussion...
Posted by user "danilaw":

This is starting to look like a huge strategic win for the west.

Putin - caught in a trap by the Ukraine - has been forced to react with naked aggression to protect Russia's naval base.

As a result, Turkey - previously wavering under a pro-Islamist government - likely to be pushed back into the western orbit due to the Russian threat to the Tartars.

NATO, once seen as of declining relevance, is likely ensured another decade or more of growing strength, and probably some increased defense budgets.

The importance of having a stronger military, especially a naval presence in the med, is illuminated.

If it takes over Crimea and parts of Ukraine Russia will be forced to pour rubles into propping up an economic basket case and committing troops there, limiting its mobility and hard currency.

And the billions Russia blew on PR for the nice, happy fun safe Russia for the Soichi Olympics just went up in smoke.
My reply:

Either that, or a rewind to the Czechoslovakian Sudetenland 1938... any good that comes out of this will be from hard work by the Ukrainian people and their neighbors, and sheer DUMB LUCK.

I for one do not have high hopes with this Reverse Midas Touch administration... and my gut says Merkel in Berlin's gonna have to do the heavy lifting. I don't know if it's irony or karma that the German Army may end up actually performing the role of liberators...
I know this much: This one looks like it's gonna be The Big One, and for those who haven't prayed in a while now might be a REALLY good time to start again.

Were I Ukraine, right now I'd be trying to put together an alliance with Poland, making sure I still had nukes available and tell Putin "ok, we'll let you have Crimea back... ONE Red Army jackboot takes ONE step beyond that and Moscow is glass."
 

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Well don't you see Obama has flexibility now that the election is over.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in the early 1990s. In return both NATO and Russia promised to guarantee their safety and Ukrainian sovereignty.

Sadly, it looks like they would have been better off keeping an SS-19 or two. As the deadline the Russians have set for the military bases their forces have surrounded to surrender gets closer, it just sucks worse and worse.

Yahoo News
 

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Are we not obligated by treaty to assist ?

Oh, wait, wrong CIC.

Putin is playing multidimensional chess, POOTUS is mostly... playing with himself.
 

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Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in the early 1990s. In return both NATO and Russia promised to guarantee their safety and Ukrainian sovereignty.

Sadly, it looks like they would have been better off keeping an SS-19 or two. As the deadline the Russians have set for the military bases their forces have surrounded to surrender gets closer, it just sucks worse and worse.

Yahoo News
Which can be laid at DemoKKKrats' feet again--NEVER trust a Russkie promise, EVER. Not unless you have their head or their testicles in a guillotine with it ready to drop on 'em, and even then expect 'em to be looking for any way to break that leverage they can find... which actually sound very much like those aforementioned DemoKKKRats--perhaps why they've always sought to be more aligned with the Kremlin than the Constitution.
 

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To ALL,

Inasmuch as Putin KNOWS that ZERO is a LIAR, a MEALY-MOUTHED FOOL, a doctrinaire LEFTIST & an utter WEAKLING, he fears NOTHING.
(Except perhaps POLAND.)

ImVho, IF we had HARRY S. TRUMAN, DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER, JOHN F. KENNEDY or RONALD W. REAGAN in the WH, there would have been NO invasion of Ukraine or any other former part of the USSR.

yours, satx
 

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Were I Warsaw, I'd be approaching DC with an offer: "We hear you want to get rid of your A-10s. How much to buy them all, today, and have your pilots fly with and train ours in Polish skies for one year?"
 

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I don't know this web site, could be a bunch of commies for all I know; first time I've ever seen it. But regardless of the source, the audio recording is pretty plain to discern.

Nuland's F** the EU scandal proves illegal Ukraine Regime Change Plans | nsnbc international

Now why would the US be seeking to overthrow the government in the Ukraine? (okay, I can think of a few, but none that I would consider worth the risk...but the benefits would all be to US based energy companies; and what do they care about governmental risk?).

I don't know what to make of this, just another angle on the whole affair.

I find the concept to be somewhat credible. Obama seems to like the James Bond aspect of covert action.
 

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To ALL,

How about another version of the FLYING TIGERS??? = I know a passel of ANG Warthog jockeys who would like a pile of $$$$$ for each Russian tank.

yours, sw
 

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It seems the US media isnt exactly being forthcoming with all the info. Turns out the US and the EU were both working on a regime change for Ukraine. And it's apparent the US guy got there first, and Russia showed us who the power is in Eastern Europe. So why did Obama wish to overthrow the Ukraine government?
 

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Kevin Gibson,

Perhaps because Obama is FECKLESS, FOOLISH, ARROGANT, a LIAR & an utter COWARD?

yours, sw
 

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I'm sure the reason was the same for us as it was for the EU; to get US business into Ukraine's energy market. That goes to our governmental system where politicians are owned by corporations, and can induce our leaders to make stupid ass moves that could potentially get us into a war. Seriously, can you think of ANY other reason we'd be overthrowing the Ukraine government?

The ask yourself, is this even remotely in the public's interest? No, it's in the interest of a select few corporations; but everyone was willing to put it all on the line.

If you ask me, this is a WAY bigger scandal than Benghazi; yet NO ONE's talking about it.

Unless I've completely missed the mark that is.
 

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As for any US military response...you guys are joking right?
It's very difficult for me to see just how we'd do it. We have some soldiers in Germany but IIRC there aren't that many and the Russkies would see 'em coming and I really don't want to speculate what it would provoke ... but it wouldn't be pretty.
After two wars we're a bit depleted, patience - wise.
I'm sure if I put my mind to t I could think of other reasons not to start a war there but I'm a bit depleted after a long night.
But there are things we could do to put Russia over a fire. Freeze up their financial assets that are in our banks that would really HURT the ruble, which is in bad shape as it is. All sorts of diplomatic things might apply .... and so forth.

In general, on any given day of the week, month, year I would say we could TKO Mother Russia with a dirty look. The best reason I can give you for NOT doing it right now can be said in three words:

BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA.​

:twisted::twisted:​
 

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Tommy,

Go back and read my earlier post; I don't think we really want to push things that far for a number of reasons.

Listen to the phone conversation between Nuland and Pratt. Seems quite apparent we were in a race with the EU to overthrow the Ukraine government. Given that position, how hard do we want to push this thing when we're not exactly on the right, or even legal side of the issue? Not that Putin's a white knight...there really are no good guys in this incident; and EVERYONE's jockeying to plunder Ukraine.

Another reason I'd be very careful with trying to cripple the economic assets of Russia; they still have over 1,000 nukes pointed at us. That horribly wounded dog still has BIG freaking fangs.

Once all this shakes out, the world will know that us and the EU were playing games and just got beat; simple as that. There's a lot of fist pounding, finger pointing, and name calling going on right now; but it will die down. Because no one has been anywhere close to ethical in this whole thing.
 
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