[Kevin Gibson]

All,

I recall reading two articles many years ago where there were two separate incidents of LA Sheriff's deputies who were shot by their partners after the bullet had traveled through the perp. Am I alone in this recollection? Was it LA Co. Sheriff?? I can't find anything on the web. Anyone have better Google-Fu than I?

 

[Charlie Petty]

I don't remember anything from LA but there have been some reports but really rare.

Should we blame the bullet or the cop who didn't follow rule 4? I can hear the argument coming about "heat of the moment" which can be addressed with serious training or sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Over penetration is far more theoretical than real so is it wise to limit ammunition performance because of something that happens rarely or ignore the rather large percentage of cop shots that miss the target completely?

 

[Kevin Gibson]

I don't remember anything from LA but there have been some reports but really rare.

Should we blame the bullet or the cop who didn't follow rule 4? I can hear the argument coming about "heat of the moment" which can be addressed with serious training or sometimes bad things happen to good people.

Over penetration is far more theoretical than real so is it wise to limit ammunition performance because of something that happens rarely or ignore the rather large percentage of cop shots that miss the target completely?

At some point, I think it's an issue. If you have a round you know will completely perforate a human torso every time; that's a potential safety issue. Police are out among the public, and chit happens. There are a whole lot of good rounds that pass all the FBI tests that won't always exit a human. If that's the case, why would you ever choose a round that always will?

I have to say, when the CHP started carrying 180 grain .40's, I expected that every round fired would exit. The 180 is a very deep penetrating round, But the JHP's work as advertised, and usually did stop in the body (with some exceptions of course).

 

[spwenger]

What I Recall...

...is one LASD incident - with the first-generation 147 gr. Winchester load - in which a woman, obscured by a reflection in a store's plate-glass window, was struck by a bullet that passed through a robbery suspect, then through the window.

I'm no fan of the 147 gr. loads but:

• This incident was cited by at least one gun writer as evidence of overpenetration.
• The department closely guarded the details of the shooting while litigation was pending.
• Several years after the incident, I ran into a deputy I knew who had become a firearms examiner, He assured me that the bullet had not passed through the torso of the robbery suspect but through his arm.

Yeah, I know... It's my report of something I was told at a shooting range. Sorry I can't offer more.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Thanks, I dont recall hearing that one.

Years ago I was a 147 hater; they just didnt expand. Round about 2002 I got a box of Hornady 147's for free and decided to use them in the field to see if anything had changed. I shot a Coyote at around 50 yards. The bullet was never recovered but it was very clear and obvious that the bullet expanded quite well and expanded fairly early. As best I can tell bullet performance was near perfect. I shot another round into a dead cow at the front shoulder. Penetration was deep, expansion looked like a marketing poster photo, just perfect at about .55 cal IIRC.

That prompted me to test the same load in a Fackler box covered with various cloth fabrics layered what have you. Every single time performance was near perfect and penetration was deep. I've since come to the conclusion that this is a nearly ideal law-enforcement round for the 9 mm. I would prefer it over any of the + P's or +P+ 124's. Better barrier penetration, excellent expansion, far less muzzle flash, less recoil; what's not to like?

 

[IrishCop]

When I became a sworn officer in 1995, our duty weapon was the SIG P-226, and our duty load was the Federal 147 grain HydraShok. We only had one officer involved shooting during the time we carried that load.

Our narcotics guys were out helping some ABC (Alabama Beverage Control) agents serve a search warrant on a bootlegger. This was in 2000. They suited up all Tacti-cool, to include balaklavas and hit the small wood framed house in a fairly nice neighborhood. As they did their dynamic entry, the bootlegger (a fairly good sized black male in his mid 50's) fired one shot from a .38 special derringer at an ABC Agent. Some return shots were fired from two of our narcs making entry through an outside door leading to the kitchen, but didn't connect. The bootlegger turned and ran towards the front of the house and met the other sheriff's narc who was in on the raid. The bootlegger raised his derringer...unfortunately for him, our narc already had his weapon raised. He fired 7 shots, six of which were non-fatal, noneffective wounds which barely slowed him down. The 7th hit his brain case and stopped the fight. None of them were through and through shots, which amazed me.

The lack of "stopping power" was of course not the fault of the round...our narc didn't hit the right target. I asked him if he used his sights at all, and he said no.

He went out and bought a SIG .40 cal the next day thinking that would solve all his problems.

 

[t-star]

When I became a sworn officer in 1995, our duty weapon was the SIG P-226, and our duty load was the Federal 147 grain HydraShok. We only had one officer involved shooting during the time we carried that load.

Our narcotics guys were out helping some ABC (Alabama Beverage Control) agents serve a search warrant on a bootlegger. This was in 2000. They suited up all Tacti-cool, to include balaklavas and hit the small wood framed house in a fairly nice neighborhood. As they did their dynamic entry, the bootlegger (a fairly good sized black male in his mid 50's) fired one shot from a .38 special derringer at an ABC Agent. Some return shots were fired from two of our narcs making entry through an outside door leading to the kitchen, but didn't connect. The bootlegger turned and ran towards the front of the house and met the other sheriff's narc who was in on the raid. The bootlegger raised his derringer...unfortunately for him, our narc already had his weapon raised. He fired 7 shots, six of which were non-fatal, noneffective wounds which barely slowed him down. The 7th hit his brain case and stopped the fight. None of them were through and through shots, which amazed me.

The lack of "stopping power" was of course not the fault of the round...our narc didn't hit the right target. I asked him if he used his sights at all, and he said no.

He went out and bought a SIG .40 cal the next day thinking that would solve all his problems.

it's always the equipment , never the operator

 

[William R. Moore]

FWIW, I recall one or two tales of pass through incidents with 147 and limb hits. No longer recall departmental attribution, nor do I believe that other officers were injured in those incidents.

I had some very early 147s that, given their fall by my right foot ejection, put me off the load for quite some time. I didn't own a chronograph at the time, but expected air rifle velocities. Those particular loads were intended for use in suppressed subguns, not pistols with 4 inch barrels. I don't recall bothering testing expansion.

I later got gifted with some 147 Hydra-Shoks. Since they also were free and by this time I owned a chronograph, I actively tested them. Expanded slugs looked like the ad photos and velocities very nicely compared with claims. Ejection was most energetic.

In between, I had some handloads with Zero 147 bullets (they were cheap, I was curious). They also chrono'd at respectable velocites and much to my shock and surprise, actually expanded in water. I don't recall ever shooting anything with them but paper.

I'd be more enthusiastic about the 147s if I could get quality, major maker +Ps in quantity. Until then, I'll stick with lighter, faster stuff of the +P variety.

 

[spwenger]

Fwiw...

...If memory serves, back when NYPD still called them SOP-9 Reports, I recall that, while they decreased after the switch from FMJ loads to the 124 gr. +P Gold Dot, there were still a few injuries from overpenetration. I'm reaching back a few years in my memory here but I don't recall any discussion of whether the hollowpoint loads had overpenetrated on torso or limb shots.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

FWIW, I recall one or two tales of pass through incidents with 147 and limb hits. No longer recall departmental attribution, nor do I believe that other officers were injured in those incidents.

I had some very early 147s that, given their fall by my right foot ejection, put me off the load for quite some time. I didn't own a chronograph at the time, but expected air rifle velocities. Those particular loads were intended for use in suppressed subguns, not pistols with 4 inch barrels. I don't recall bothering testing expansion.

I later got gifted with some 147 Hydra-Shoks. Since they also were free and by this time I owned a chronograph, I actively tested them. Expanded slugs looked like the ad photos and velocities very nicely compared with claims. Ejection was most energetic.

In between, I had some handloads with Zero 147 bullets (they were cheap, I was curious). They also chrono'd at respectable velocites and much to my shock and surprise, actually expanded in water. I don't recall ever shooting anything with them but paper.

I'd be more enthusiastic about the 147s if I could get quality, major maker +Ps in quantity. Until then, I'll stick with lighter, faster stuff of the +P variety.

What's the +P going to get you? The whole idea for the use of +P in the lighter bullets is to increase barrier penetration, not bullet expansion. And the additional expansion gets you less penetration in tissue. The 147 completely negates the need for +P, which is why you dont see it. It's already the best penetrator, and these days it's a very good expander. So you see, there is no need.

 

[Skeptic49]

My experience with 147 gr 9x19 subsonics has been less than satisfactory. From two different 9mms SWaMPy 9c and Kahr 9094N the cases bounce off my head! Never a problem with 115s or 124s. A rented Glock 26 tossed one into my glasses and singed an eyebrow.
Geoff
Who wonders what they used for development?

 

[spwenger]

News to Me

What's the +P going to get you? The whole idea for the use of +P in the lighter bullets is to increase barrier penetration, not bullet expansion. And the additional expansion gets you less penetration in tissue. The 147 completely negates the need for +P, which is why you dont see it. It's already the best penetrator, and these days it's a very good expander. So you see, there is no need.

At least in the earlier days of hollowpoints, I was under the impression that higher velocity produced greater expansion. As I recall the developments in my "career," the quest for the velocity to generate significant expansion was the common area of pursuit until the FBI chose to blame the Dade County fiasco on insufficient penetration by Winchester's 115 gr. 9mm Silvertip.

Curiously, according to my sources, FBI is now transitioning back to 9mm, claiming that the difference in terminal performance between Federal's HST load in 9mm and .40 S&W is negligible. I cant swear to it but I seem to recall that it's the 124 gr. HST load that they'll be using.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Yes, higher velocity should give you greater expansion, but in tissue greater expansion means less penetration. The 147 is a very balanced round. It has good expansion to around .55 caliber and good penetration. I just dont understand what's missing? Why the compulsion for more when the cartridge is perfectly adequate. When you go to +P recoil,muzzle flash, and noise are greatly enhanced especially the muzzle flash. The standard pressure 147 has very little muzzle flash. I wouldnt want to give up that for what would be at best a negligible difference in expansion; especially considering the vast number of shootings happen at night.

With the 124's you get something you can clearly measure, increased barrier penetration sufficient that it passes the FBI's criteria. With the 147, you're already there so why the need to push when it will hinder tissue penetration, and give you a very noticable muzzle flash?

The 147 is IMO about the ideal LE round. That being said, when I carry a 9mm, I typically carry std pressure 124's. I dont care for the increased muzzle flash, I consider that something to be avoided at all costs. If I felt that the standard pressure 9mm lacked sufficient power to get the job done, I'd carry my .45 rather than juice up the 9mm to the point to where muzzle flash is greater.

And I think when going to a +P, what is it that you're seeking? If barrier penetration, then the std pressure 147 will out perform the 124+P's. If it's bullet diameter, then switch to the .40 or .45 and now you get the larger diameter without giving up tissue penetration and adding a big muzzle flash.

Just my .02.

 

[spwenger]

I'll Toss in a (Hopefully) Final Penny

The 147 is IMO about the ideal LE round. That being said, when I carry a 9mm, I typically carry std pressure 124's. I dont care for the increased muzzle flash, I consider that something to be avoided at all costs. If I felt that the standard pressure 9mm lacked sufficient power to get the job done, I'd carry my .45 rather than juice up the 9mm to the point to where muzzle flash is greater.

Just my .02.

In my opinion, ergonomics is second only to reliability in handgun selection. Pistols built around the .45 ACP don't fit everyone and, to my knowledge, the .45 GAP is dead in the water.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

In my opinion, ergonomics is second only to reliability in handgun selection. Pistols built around the .45 ACP don't fit everyone and, to my knowledge, the .45 GAP is dead in the water.

Most any 9mm can be had in .40.

I think people just see +P and say it has to be better because it goes faster, makes more noise and the muzzle flash is spectacular. Im not sure that anyone ever stops to think what the +P really does. If anyone thinks 80-90 more fps really means something when bullets hit flesh; I just dont know what to say. Its down to splitting hairs that have already been split. Kinda reminds me of the guy who hunts with a .30-06 because its worlds better than the .270.

I just think its healthy to always ask why?

It's better; why?
It expands better; why?
'Cause its going faster; oh, how much faster? 90fps
And that produces how much bigger of a wound? Well actually it's really no bigger. Sure the diameter is a couple hundreths larger, but it doesnt penetrate as far; so it all evens out.
But it is better at barrier penetration; oh cool. But I always thought the best way to get more penetration was a heavier bullet; well yes, that is the best way to increase penetration.
So what am I getting then? Well it says +P, and everyone know's that's "better". And that's what the cops use, and all the gun magazines say it's better.
Wait, didnt we just settle that? Apparently not, because gun people just want what they want.

Oh, now I get it.

 

[William R. Moore]

What's the +P going to get you?

OK, my preference for the +P dates me somewhat. In days of yore, velocities of US produced 9mm bore little relation to published velocities*. More to the point, they were really lethargic compared to much european ammunition. Selection of +P variants tended to get the velocity up close to what the US factories claimed their standard loads produced. Sometimes, they might even get close to what they claimed. There were a very few makers whose products actually produced what they claimed. To some extent, this situation still exists.

Then there was the expansion thing, which the bullet designers seem to have solved, so that the product no longer must be driven at warp factor 4 to expand. It ususally does what it's supposed/claimed to do at whatever velocity the manufacturer manages to make. Nowdays, the velocity variations don't seem to matter much.

Intellectual discussion aside, my personal experience has been good performance with certain +P (US) and/or european loads. My gut says that I know this stuff works, the heck with intellectualism.

There are +P 147 loads, Federal makes at least one. They're just hard to come by and I'm not really that fond of the concept unless someone is going to gift me with an MP5SD.

*I have vivid memories of grabbing a couple of WW white box ball on the way to a match. They didn't make minor when run across the chronograph. If I pay for 9mm I expect 9mm, not .380! Not the only case in my experience.