[Kevin Gibson]

So anyone have a favorite SMG or semi-auto version of an SMG? Anyone have any experience with SMG's?

I'm really not into machineguns, but my first gunsmithing job was working for a class 3 dealer/importer, so I got to know SMG's quite intimately whether I liked it or not. I learned some interesting things about them.

1- Open bolt SMG's are a lot like shooting a flintlock; just more booms at the end. But you pull the trigger, and for a split second, there's a pause; then things happen. Takes just a little practice to become semi-auto accurate with an SMG but it can be done.

I really loved the Thompson (still think it's cool) until I started shooting them sdie by side with other SMG's. As great as the Thompson is, if I were in WWII, I'd MUCH rather have a STEN. They're lighter, just as reliable, and the ammo is lighter with better penetration. (considering everything, including the economics, the STEN was the best sub-gun of the war.

The Sterling is easily the finest SMG I've ever fired. The dual spring/buffer setup really works and full auto fire is just smooth enough to where you could just about write your name with the thing.

UZI is truly outstanding also, but lacked the ergonomics of the Sterling...but had an even better folding stock.

MAC-10's suck. MAC-11's suck, but are cool.

MP-5's...that's the one that everyone raves about, but I'm not much of a fan. I've seen lots that didn't work well, and several that were ammo sensitive. I've also seen others that were flawless. The retractable stock sucks really bad; the later side folding PDW stock was a HUGE improvement. Really the best of the closed bolt SMG's is probably the Colt 9mm Commando...it's everything the MP5 ever wanted to be and more.

 

[Charlie Petty]

Almost my favorite subject.

My favorite is the Thompson and a PD where I once was had two 28 Oversamps that I shot regularly.

I agree about the UZI because the rate of fire is nice and slow and in the same vein is the old Grease Gun.

I have a good bit of experience with the MP5, in both 9mm, .40 and 10mm. While you hear a lot about maintenance issues really didn't have any problems. Also a bit with the replacement UMP which has absolutely no cool factor.

Probably the coolest is the FN P-90. The 50 round magazine can be dumped in seconds and there is so little recoil that you can shoot groups with it.

I only got to shoot the Colt once and liked it but not enough experience.

Another real fun gun is the PPSH and if you hold it down and shoot all 72 rounds... your eyeballs bounce in time with the recoil... and keep going for awhile after it's empty....strange but true.

 

[Diamondback]

OK, let's... the extent of my subgun experience is on the M1928A1 and M1 Thompsons, so I'm the flyweight in this club LOL, and while there may be technically better iron available, or lighter, well... if the balloon went up I think I'd be comfortable entrusting my life to one of the old Chicago Typewriters.

They may not be the BEST choice, but as long as you're getting an original and not a dubious-quality West Hurley is it fair to say they wouldn't necessarily be a BAD choice if the packer's already carrying .45 ammo anyway?

 

[TommyGunn]

No .... I really don't have experience with subguns.
My Avatar is a photo of a dummy 1928 Thompson; my screenname is of course derived from that. The additional "n" derives from a concern that on gunforums the name might have been taken, and a method of making it more unique was taken from an old early 60s TV detective show titled Peter Gunn.
As a kid one of my favorite TV series was "COMBAT!" Actor Vic Morrow portrayed Sgt. Chip Saunders who carried (almost as a signature) the '28 Thompson. The only two exceptions was in the D-Day episode where he carried an M-1 Garand and a later episode titled "The Squad" where he inexplicably carried an M-1 carbine. The series holds up very well today.

As great as the Thompson is, if I were in WWII, I'd MUCH rather have a STEN. They're lighter, just as reliable....

Interestingly, actor Rick Jason, who played Lt. Hanley was originally to be "issued" the Tommy Gun. Actor Rick Jason, who unlike a lot of actors was a real GUNperson, he reloaded and he was a hunter, refused to carry the Thompson. He knew the show required long days and carrying that much weight around all day would be tiring, so he asked the propman for the lightest weapon which wound up being the carbine. So I guess Rick Jason & Kevin Gibson had one thought in common.
I have had the opportunity to handle & examine real Thompsons but never to fire one. Of course I have handled the dummy that is my avatar. About the only observation I can make is the rear sight is stuck too close to my eye and my arms are a bit stubby so with a drum magazine the forend is hard to reach. The shoulder stock coming off from below the gun detracts from the ergos ... despite being similar in general layout to the M4 carbine it is NOT nearly as ergonomic and or course, as has been noted, it IS heavy.

I recall once asking my father, an ex Navy UDT member Korean War vet if he'd ever used a Thompson or fired one and what he thought of it. He'd only fired one at a range before shipping off to Korea where a cmdr decided to familiarize the team to some weapons. He said the Thompson should make a great anchor for their rubber zodiacs -- -- not a sterling endorsement. The fact he "liberated" an M-1 Carbine en route back from Korea probably says a lot of what he thought of military weaponry.

Maybe someday maybe I'll get fortunate and take the NFA plunge if I find a good transferable 1928 Thompson.... but, truth is I confess: I like the M1 Carbine better.

OK maybe not any great experiences with subguns but it's gotta be worth 2 cents ... if I add coffee?

 

[Skeptic49]

Sorry, just some trigger time with the M3A1 Grease Gun. Every part supplied by the lowest bidder. But it was made in Cleveland, OH.

I thought the MP40 was the preferred SMG of WWII, in Europe it was a major trade item along the front, per my Uncles in the '50s.
Geoff
Who was never big on autofire, Drill Sergeants influence survives to this day.

 

[William R. Moore]

I have some trigger time with what fuzzy memory ids as an Ingram 49/1949 test firing it after rebarreling it. For those not familiar with this particular item, it was (allegedly) Charlie Ingrams first SMG. IIRC, he used something that looked an awful lot like grease gun uppers somehow attached to Thompson trigger groups. Nice slow rate of fire, tapping off single shots wasn't hard at all. I'm thinking it somehow used a Thompson stock, no fore end. Overall, much better than the later MAC series.

The collector who owned it claimed there were only about 2500 made. I always wondered why anyone would have bothered given the vast amount of surplus stuff available back then.

I do kinda have a thing for the MP5 with the fixed stock. Never saw any personally with reliability issues. One of my major regrets in life was turning down an MP5SD while they were still relatively affordable. A LLEA defaulted on purchase and the offer was really good. It wasn't that I didn't have the money, I just couldn't justify it. I wanted it, but didn't really NEED it.

 

[t-star]

i'm going to make the rest of you jealous- I still have my UZI- folding stock and all - and the SINGLEPOINT sight - just like in the movie "all the wild geese"- which had nothing to do with geese- granted, thanks to government intervention, we can't shoot them anymore, bit it is nice to open the safe and look at it every now and then- it used to be nice to be able to use it, esp for the "oh sh*t " factor at the range- you go to the ready table, open the attaché case, and pull it out-you sure got some funny looks- now of course, the whole smg thing has been eclipsed by things like the styr aug and the tavor

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Almost my favorite subject.

My favorite is the Thompson and a PD where I once was had two 28 Oversamps that I shot regularly.

I agree about the UZI because the rate of fire is nice and slow and in the same vein is the old Grease Gun.

I have a good bit of experience with the MP5, in both 9mm, .40 and 10mm. While you hear a lot about maintenance issues really didn't have any problems. Also a bit with the replacement UMP which has absolutely no cool factor.

Probably the coolest is the FN P-90. The 50 round magazine can be dumped in seconds and there is so little recoil that you can shoot groups with it.

I only got to shoot the Colt once and liked it but not enough experience.

Another real fun gun is the PPSH and if you hold it down and shoot all 72 rounds... your eyeballs bounce in time with the recoil... and keep going for awhile after it's empty....strange but true.

The PPSH is a magnificent SMG. If cost were not a factor, I'd give it the crown of best SMG of the war, because of it's cartridge, drum magazine, and its reliability; it was truly fantastic and a joy to shoot.

Oh I forgot about the FN-P90....OMG are those a hoot or what. Squeeze a little and you get semi auto. Squeeze a lot and you get the smoothest, lightest recoiling full auto ever. I'm not crazy about the cartridge, but I'm confident a 3-5 round burst would get someone's attention. It's goofy looking, but the ergonomics are outstanding and she shoots well.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

No .... I really don't have experience with subguns.
My Avatar is a photo of a dummy 1928 Thompson; my screenname is of course derived from that. The additional "n" derives from a concern that on gunforums the name might have been taken, and a method of making it more unique was taken from an old early 60s TV detective show titled Peter Gunn.
As a kid one of my favorite TV series was "COMBAT!" Actor Vic Morrow portrayed Sgt. Chip Saunders who carried (almost as a signature) the '28 Thompson. The only two exceptions was in the D-Day episode where he carried an M-1 Garand and a later episode titled "The Squad" where he inexplicably carried an M-1 carbine. The series holds up very well today.
Interestingly, actor Rick Jason, who played Lt. Hanley was originally to be "issued" the Tommy Gun. Actor Rick Jason, who unlike a lot of actors was a real GUNperson, he reloaded and he was a hunter, refused to carry the Thompson. He knew the show required long days and carrying that much weight around all day would be tiring, so he asked the propman for the lightest weapon which wound up being the carbine. So I guess Rick Jason & Kevin Gibson had one thought in common.
I have had the opportunity to handle & examine real Thompsons but never to fire one. Of course I have handled the dummy that is my avatar. About the only observation I can make is the rear sight is stuck too close to my eye and my arms are a bit stubby so with a drum magazine the forend is hard to reach. The shoulder stock coming off from below the gun detracts from the ergos ... despite being similar in general layout to the M4 carbine it is NOT nearly as ergonomic and or course, as has been noted, it IS heavy.

I recall once asking my father, an ex Navy UDT member Korean War vet if he'd ever used a Thompson or fired one and what he thought of it. He'd only fired one at a range before shipping off to Korea where a cmdr decided to familiarize the team to some weapons. He said the Thompson should make a great anchor for their rubber zodiacs -- -- not a sterling endorsement. The fact he "liberated" an M-1 Carbine en route back from Korea probably says a lot of what he thought of military weaponry.

Maybe someday maybe I'll get fortunate and take the NFA plunge if I find a good transferable 1928 Thompson.... but, truth is I confess: I like the M1 Carbine better.

OK maybe not any great experiences with subguns but it's gotta be worth 2 cents ... if I add coffee?

Tommy -

Yeah, I'd rather carry the M1 Carbine too. They're lighter, more reliable, ammunition is lighter, and the barrier penetration (something often overlooked, as it will out penetrate the best of the .223's) is very good. I fell in love with the little Carbine as a young kid watching Bridges at Toko Ri, where at the end Micky Rooney and William Holden were held down in a trench and eventually died there...but it was the first time my eyes beheld an M1 Carbine and it's been a love affair ever since.

I think it's totally morally wrong that you of all people haven't shot a Thompson. Had I known that, I would have had you come to my house in Arkansas (I've since moved to Nevada) and I'd arrange a good quality range session with a Thompson. That's what I did for my best friend who always wanted to shoot one. I have a bud in Arkansas who has 3 Thompson's, 2 M1's and 1 '28. As cool as the '28's were, the M1 and M1A1 were better guns. He eventually just put a '28 barrel on an M1 to have the best of both worlds.

Being new to Nevada, I don't know anyone out here yet with a Thompson, but if I do meet someone with one, you'll get the invite sir.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Sorry, just some trigger time with the M3A1 Grease Gun. Every part supplied by the lowest bidder. But it was made in Cleveland, OH.

I thought the MP40 was the preferred SMG of WWII, in Europe it was a major trade item along the front, per my Uncles in the '50s.
Geoff
Who was never big on autofire, Drill Sergeants influence survives to this day.

The Grease Gun was very reliable and easy to shoot, but for a full auto weapon, the rate of fire was just too low. So they're really fun on a range, but I'm not sure I'd want one in combat. The Grease Gun was the first full auto I've ever fired, so it holds a special place in my heart.

The MP40 is one of my least favorite SMG's. Because you hold them by the magazine, if you torque that mag you'll have reliability problems. You quickly learn to keep the lower part of your hand off the magazine. And you'll find quite a few will have wobbly magazines. They also almost all have wobbly stocks which is very annoying when firing full auto. But quality of manufacture of the early ones was top notch, and they are cool looking.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

I have some trigger time with what fuzzy memory ids as an Ingram 49/1949 test firing it after rebarreling it. For those not familiar with this particular item, it was (allegedly) Charlie Ingrams first SMG. IIRC, he used something that looked an awful lot like grease gun uppers somehow attached to Thompson trigger groups. Nice slow rate of fire, tapping off single shots wasn't hard at all. I'm thinking it somehow used a Thompson stock, no fore end. Overall, much better than the later MAC series.

The collector who owned it claimed there were only about 2500 made. I always wondered why anyone would have bothered given the vast amount of surplus stuff available back then.

I do kinda have a thing for the MP5 with the fixed stock. Never saw any personally with reliability issues. One of my major regrets in life was turning down an MP5SD while they were still relatively affordable. A LLEA defaulted on purchase and the offer was really good. It wasn't that I didn't have the money, I just couldn't justify it. I wanted it, but didn't really NEED it.

In the '80's I worked in a warehouse that was piled to the roof with pallets of surplus SMG's...tens of thousands; no kidding. I have never even seen one of the early in Ingrams...that's cool.

And yes, the fixed stock on the MP5's made it MUCH nicer. The nice thing about the MP5 is the closed bolt and how easy it is to learn to shoot full auto.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

i'm going to make the rest of you jealous- I still have my UZI- folding stock and all - and the SINGLEPOINT sight - just like in the movie "all the wild geese"- which had nothing to do with geese- granted, thanks to government intervention, we can't shoot them anymore, bit it is nice to open the safe and look at it every now and then- it used to be nice to be able to use it, esp for the "oh sh*t " factor at the range- you go to the ready table, open the attaché case, and pull it out-you sure got some funny looks- now of course, the whole smg thing has been eclipsed by things like the styr aug and the tavor

So why can't you shoot it? Can't you take it out to the sticks and have fun? Or do you live in California?

Single Point sight...that was the good one IIRC. Can't remember the maker of the Single Point, but I remember the other maker of similar sight was Armson.

 

[t-star]

So why can't you shoot it? Can't you take it out to the sticks and have fun? Or do you live in California?

Single Point sight...that was the good one IIRC. Can't remember the maker of the Single Point, but I remember the other maker of similar sight was Armson.

kanada- there was a letter issued by the government in 2005 that did everything but confiscate them- confined them to the safe- first they were just a restricted, same as a pistol- ranges only plus 2 and from , then special authorization to transport,( which they wouldn't issue fro more than 1 day and not on weekends) , then confined to MILITARY RANGES ONLY- i.e. somewhere there is a military base with a rifle range- not all do- then finally the lawyers re- read the act , and in their opinion, did NOT make allowances for transportation, so confined to the safe- fun, huh

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Is it an open bolt UZI? Before the "A" model?

 

[t-star]

yea, we got a bunch of Israeli surplus- fn-fals, stens, uzis , some Egyptian toks, m14s- the ones the us shipped to Israel and some were still in the vcm bags- brand spanking new- your state dept wouldn't let them b/c one a machine gun, always a machine gun - like the Korean garands of late- anyway, once they got into the civilian hands, the government has been doing everything they can short of confiscation to "get these things off the street"- never mind the fact that NOT ONE of these guns has ever been used in any crime- and yes, mine is an open bolt - they changed the fire control so it would only fire semi- ie the change lever itself has a block in it

 

[Charlie Petty]

Kevin the original P90 cartridge would penetrate a level 3 vest and 12" of gelatin but it is restricted to LE and military. The civilian version is not so much.

Last fall I got to shoot one of the Kriss (sp?) .45s. It was cool but was so fast it was hard to control and would really benefit from a burst function. It seemed like you got 5 rounds with just a guick pull and release.

I got quite a bit of trigger time with an MP5-40 with a two shot burst. I could routinely make snake eyes head shots at 50 rd, but when you went to three shots the last one always went high

 

[stand watie]

to ALL,

The Swedish K is hard to beat for a buzz-gun.
(In my day the US Special Forces could have ANY weapon that they chose to use in RVN & most CHOSE the "el cheapo" Swede.)

The British STERLING is also difficult to top, though the Thompson is THE CLASSIC SMG.

yours, sw

 

[William R. Moore]

I never got to shoot a K. Rawther suspected that a big part of the attraction was the "we be different, we be coooool" factor. Then there's the implied "yeah, I can tell you why I have it, but then I'd have to kill you" thing.

 

[Charlie Petty]

probably true... maybe they could build a briefcase version like the MP-5.

This gets me thinking and I have three more candidates:

Broomhandle Mauser "Schnellfuer" (sp?). With the shoulder stock it is way tool.

The FA version of the Beretta (M96?)

But the totally coolest, most fun is the Trejo. It is a copy of the little Llama .22 but FA. It has a 10 round magazine and mere seconds to run dry. It is a very close range weapon...... minute of phone booth accuracy.

PS: never got to shoot a Swedish K, but heard good stuff

 

[IrishCop]

Well, I actually got to shoot an M-16 in full auto in the USAF - just a couple of magazines. I know, not a sub-gun, but fun. Also got to shoot an M-60, an M-2 and an 82 MM Mortar. Not bad for a wingnut.

Since I've been with the sheriff's office, I've played with the Colt 9mm/AR SMG, which was just a sweetheart to shoot, and an H&K UMP .40 the department bought for our ill-fated SWAT team (didn't care for it - just didn't crank my tractor). Most of the other guys loved them.

Thanks to Charlie and friends, I've had the opportunity to shoot a Thompson, and MP-5 with the fixed stock and a Kriss. The MP-5 and Kriss were lots of fun, but I love me some Thompson's.

Wouldn't mind playing with an M-3 and an Uzi.