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Discussion Starter #1
Last week I found this forum for liberals who are pro-2nd amendment and seriously into guns. I can’t even remember what I was originally researching, but it took me to some forum I had never heard of, where they were talking about this liberal forum. Here’s the part that really breaks my heart; the right wing gun owner forum was proclaiming most everything evil toward the liberals, just shy of death threats for having the nerve to be on the left side, yet still a lover of the 2nd Amendment and guns in general.

Just my opinion, but it isn’t the Left that is ruining this nation, the Right is doing their best as well. Our enemy is politicians, not parties. Hell, both parties have become the bastion of traditionally leftist ideas; they’re both generally pushing the same agenda. The only thing that differs anymore is whose pockets get lined when a certain party is in power.

The 2nd Amendment is so central to the right that it could be considered the spine. Legitimately the left is lacking that particular spine, but let us not forget this…We have not seen a renewal of the AWB or any other gun control legislation because of the LEFT, not because of the right. Members of the Democratic party just don’t have the stomach for it anymore.

It has been a cultural war and the right has won that war to the point that large numbers of Democrats are now, maybe not pro-gun, but not interested in gun control. On that liberal gun forum there are guys who are self professed Marxists, yet still see eye to eye with us on the issue of gun control.

Americans have become hyper-political, only looking at our differences and forgetting that as Americans we have things in common. My plea to our forum members is to take the higher road than the members of these other forums. This is the one area that makes me proud to be a member of this forum; I tend to think our members have more integrity than those other forums.

I personally believe the future of the 2nd Amendment rests mostly in the hands of Democrats. If we can embrace our pro-gun brethren on the other side of the isle who are trying all they can do to work within their party to change the core of the party on the issue of the 2nd Amendment; we do SO much more to forever cement the issue of the 2nd Amendment.

Where liberal gun owners are concerned, let’s focus on what we have in common, rather than the destructive elements of what we disagree on. Remember, the old ploy is divide and conquer; and often we’re the ones allowing ourselves to be vulnerable to divide and conquer.
 

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The problem with "liberal gun owners" is that in my experience, they NEVER put 2A as their highest priority when voting. Abortion or gay rights or affirmative action or "freedom from religion" or union or whatever always takes precedence, and they'll vote against their guns every time, the only exception being in a primary where there is a choice between pro-gun and anti-gun Democrats.
 

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Re: Liberal gun owners - we are turning a corner

Kevin Gibson said:
....The 2nd Amendment is so central to the right that it could be considered the spine. Legitimately the left is lacking that particular spine, but let us not forget this…We have not seen a renewal of the AWB or any other gun control legislation because of the LEFT, not because of the right. Members of the Democratic party just don't have the stomach for it anymore. .
I take exception. WHY is the left "unwilling" to renew the ban? It is not, so far as I see, because they've fundamentally changed their belief system. You said it yourself in a way; they "don't have the stomach for it anymore." If that is a "win" it isn't because of the left, it's because of the right. Or maybe it's (A.) they remember too well the 1994 lesson; they pass a ban=>they lose kongress. Or, (B.) they still want it but are too busy with other things, like making war on free enterprise of passing tax hikes.

Kevin Gibson said:
....I personally believe the future of the 2nd Amendment rests mostly in the hands of Democrats. If we can embrace our pro-gun brethren on the other side of the isle who are trying all they can do to work within their party to change the core of the party on the issue of the 2nd Amendment; we do SO much more to forever cement the issue of the 2nd Amendment.
If true the 2A is doomed. Feinstein (D California) still wants an assault weapon ban. She's just waiting for the right time. SCOTUS decisions recently have buttressed our case ... but we still see the political divide (5 to 4 decisions).
The democrats are not above shenanigans to further erode the 2A. Look at Mayor Daly in Chicago. He just got the Chicago ban blown up right under his feet. What does he do? He passes a law allowing one gun per month and it must be kept INSIDE the house!
Let's not kid ourselves; the desire to constrict and or eliminate gun rights is still out there.
Given how eagerly Obamacare was stuffed down the throats of an America which seemed popularly against it (if polls are to be believed) it surprises me gun control has so far remained off the front tier burners on the political oven. But Obama has two and a half more years. And if he gets another term .....?
No. This ain't over. The "fat lady" is only a gleam in her parents' eyes....

Kevin Gibson said:
Where liberal gun owners are concerned, let's focus on what we have in common, rather than the destructive elements of what we disagree on. Remember, the old ploy is divide and conquer; and often we're the ones allowing ourselves to be vulnerable to divide and conquer.
IMHO it has been the left (democrats) who are primarily responsible for gun control. Yes, I am well aware that there are RINOS (ie., Mayor Bloomberg in the Naked City {ie., New York City}) out there who also oppose 2A rights.
But in general it's the left.
I don't want to go too far off topic, but frankly as of lately there are far more serious problems facing this country than gun control. To the extent any liberal will join the pro 2A bandwagon, fine, I welcome them. But the current leadership of this country is taking horrific steps in the dismantling of liberty, free enterprise, and individual rights, engaging in agendas that will have horrific repurcussions for our economic health, and are vastly increasing government reach into our private and personal lives.
To me, that has pushed the 2A debate into second tier status as an important issue of our time.
No offense meant to anyone here; I am merely stating what I believe to be true. I honestly believe I am living through the beginning of the end of America as a major world power, as a free country that values capitalism and individual rights.
[center:3tqq3lu1]-or-[/center:3tqq3lu1]
Maybe I'm just turning into a surly old curmudgeon. :cry:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I think you both have missed my point.

Snake, you are requiring all voters to be single issue voters; otherwise, you have nothing to talk about. I admire your passion on the 2nd Amendment, but not everyone is willing to throw aside all other ideals for one. To me, that is no crime.

Tommy,

Your points are very valid, the threat absolutely comes from the left, and it by no means has gone away; on that we are in solid agreement. But does that mean you must hate and oppose those on the left who agree with you on the issue of gun control? These guys are trying to work within their party to change this one issue; how is that bad?
 

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Over the last few months I experienced a decaying relationship with Progressive writer Dan Baum, whose article on gun carriers recently appeared in Harper's.

In a nutshell, most of the discussion, initiated by him several months after he subscribed to my daily mailings, came down to "what's wrong with this or that 'reasonable regulation'?"

I respect anyone who has the time and patience to deal with these people but, frankly, after a few months, I got the sense that I was dealing with a non-electoral form of the quadrennial Democratic presidential candidate going out for the obligatory duck- or pheasant-hunting jaunt, to show how much he supports the RKBA.

As with Progressives in general, I was left with the sense that it's only consensus if you concede to them.

Let us not forget "organizations" such as Americans for Gun Safety and American Hunters and Shooters Association, which masquerade as gun owners but whose true purpose is to muddy the waters in their support of additional infringements of the RKBA.
 

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Kevin Gibson said:
....Tommy,

Your points are very valid, the threat absolutely comes from the left, and it by no means has gone away; on that we are in solid agreement. But does that mean you must hate and oppose those on the left who agree with you on the issue of gun control? These guys are trying to work within their party to change this one issue; how is that bad?
The question is do those on the left who agree with me on the 2A agree with me on other social and economic issues? Or ... if they do, then why are they leftists?
I oppose those on the left who are in step with Obama, Pelosi and Reid. If those dingbats wish to "join" me on 2A issues then fine, they can, but they get no praise nor dispensation from me for their idiotic choices on the other economic issues that will certainly crush this nation before any new "assault weapon ban" can.
In so far as hating the "enemy" is concerned, I realize that we're told we should "love" the enemy; it's Biblical, I guess.
But sometimes I have a really hard time being a good Christian.
They say "the "meek shall inherit the earth."
Yes. In 6' by 2' plots.
They say we should "beat our swords into plowhead."
Yes. So we can plow for those who keep their swords.
I'm sorrry. I've explained in other threads ... or perhaps even on other forums. It's a tad hard to keep straight where I've posted what. If this is a repeat, I'm sorry;
I truly think that I am starting to live through the "beginning of the end" of this country, atleast as a major world power. IMHO the wealth of this country has been usurped and spent by those in charge. Look at major cities across this country; Detroit, Oakland, Boston, etc. These are all left controled cities, all in major debt. Many are attempting to address thgis problem by raising taxes. New York City has done this. In New Jersey we have a glimmer of hope, but rarely do we see that.
Social movements have arisen in response to this -- the teaparty movement being the forefront; only to be mocked and jeered and insulted as "teabaggers" by the Harry Reids, Pelosi, Obamaites and those kinds, and co-opted by the repukes on the other side.
The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) a couple of quarters ago was rising at about 5%. The next qtr. is was downrated to 3.4% (IIRC) and just recently the last qtr's GDP was rated about 2.5% The economy is slowing again; we're heading to a "double-dip" recession.
In 2008 as we all know, the bottom fell out of the economy. It was one of the major factors behind Obama's victory (the other being his ignominious opponent's gasping sputtering attempt at campaigning). Unfortunatly, too many people bought into Obama's "hopey-changey" promises.
But what we got was basically a reprise of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. We got a socialistic big government big spender who is trying to throw "stimulus" $$ at the problem.
This reminds me of 1932 all over again; Hoover was not the big spender FDR was he did "big govt." things too when the depression hit. But FDR's "spin" was it wasn't enough, the country needed more. And he won. But after two terms he hadn't made anything any better, and in 1940 he nearly didn't run again. FDR was honest enough to realize his economic programs were an utter failure. The only reason he did run -- and won -- was he glommed onto the isolationist movement which was big in America since WW2 had begun, and at the time there were a LOT of people who remembered WW1 who didn't want anything to do with pulling europe's butt out of another fire.
If Obama had the sense God gave a pump handle he'd know what can be expected from big government throwing big money around. Corruption, deceit, theivery, so on and so on.
Hell, we're throwing gobs of $$ to study dancing moves via computer analysis. Now I don't begrudge computer analysis of anything -- but NOT ON THE GOVERNMENT DIME!!! And that's just one tiny example. The waste is becoming legion --- which is actually quite an accomplishment considering what past administrations have done.
And it can't go on.
So no. I'm sorry. I can't be a good Christian about it.
We're being ruled by people who hate traditional American values, and who are bent on destroying America.
And I admit it: I hate them. I'm sorry. But I won't spin the matter. I really, deeply, passionatly HATE THEM.

And those who follwo them, support them -- those who elected them?
Fools. "Useful Idiots" as Stalin would say.

Now .. . it's time for this surly curmudgeon to slink back into the stygian fog of doom and continue prepping.
Either that ... or see what Glenn Beck is up to .... :roll: :? :ek: :help: :giveup:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Well Tommy, I think it's sad that you think the other side is doing any better.

Let’s not forget that TARP and Stimulus were both concepts conceived under the Bush Administration. TARP was almost to a vote before Bush left, and the Stimulus package was well into the rinse and spin cycle before he left.

Okay, well perhaps I brought up the concept of not hating those who share our 2nd Amendment views to the wrong group. It’s clear to me that those on this forum are hell bent that one side is right and the other side is wrong. Sorry guys, but when it all falls apart (and it will, in our lifetime), I think you’re going to feel really silly thinking your party had all (or any) of the answers.

I will concede defeat on this subject and move to greener pastures.
 

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Re: Liberal gun owners - we are turning a corner

Kevin, I don't "know" my "side" has all the "right " answers. That's not what I'm saying.
I do know there's a right and a wrong. I do know there are economic policies that work and those that don't.
All you have to do is look at history. Examine the Great Depression and what happened to cause it, what happened to prolong it, and what happened to "cure" it. FDR blamed Hoover for the legacy of the depression when his big spending methods failed. Hoover, accused by many as doing nothing, was hardly a "stick-in-the-mud." He spent too; just NOT AS MUCH AS FDR did. People began to believe that while Hoover might have had the right idea he just didn't do "enough" of it.
Unfortunatly, after eight years, FDR hadn't accomplished anything if you discount bending the Supreme Court to his will so it wouldn't declare any more of his vaunted programs unconstitutional. In 1940 the unemployment rate was unchanged from 1933. FDR, seeing the beginnings of WW2, glommed on to the isolationist tendencies of the country in the '40 election and won on that promise -- he knew his economic policies were a failure. He realized if he ran on his economic accomplishments the populace would drop kick him so far out of office he'd land in Novaya Zemlya.
What saved America from the depression???
WW2. But not really the war itself. FDR realized he had to get out of the way of businesses -- he needed them to produce and do it fast when WW2 started. It's amazing, really, how "antibusiness" FDR was. He believed all during the 30s the business leaders had a conspiracy going against him, and THAT was why the economy was sputtering!!!!

Does any of this sound familiar? Hear any echoes there? "Those who fail to learn from history are forever doomed to repeat its mistakes," wrote George Santayana. Now, is Obama deliberatly trying to bring us down? Or is he simply so ideologically bound to a leftists agenda that he thinks he can do the same [email protected] FDR did and it will work for him because he's a "messiah???" You tell me. It really doesn't matter. What he's doing is destroying this country. Deliberatly or through narcisssistic egotism ... it is not really relavent for purposes of this post.
There IS a RIGHT and a WRONG. There is what WORKS and what FAILS. This is known from history, and it's why we study it.
There are also economic and social reasons why FDR failed. But trust me, we don't need to go there; all we need to know is history's lesson.
Oh, one more minor tidbit of history BTW. We also had a recession (severe) in 1920. No one remembers it, probably because we had a quick robust recovery. Wanna know why we zoomed right back to health? What the government did? What did the govt. do?

Nothing.
That's what. Without govt. interference the economy corrected itself.
Do you think I am pissed about demonrats and just ever so much in love with republicans?
Remember; Dubya started this. He did the first bail out.
Obama just multiplied it five times over. Oh .... remember the Hoover V. FDR thing I spoke of above? More echos. Think about it.
It ISN'T really a democrat vs. republican thing.
It's liberal versus conservative.
And please don't think Dubya was a conservative. I mean ...YOU might think he [s:1w4il1hx]is[/s:1w4il1hx]--- er, was. But I don't. He was a REPUBLICAN. He was not a "movement" leader, he was a "machine" politician attached ONLY to the REPUKE party, and only nominally at that.

So there is something called beliefs, principles, ideas, and convictions. I won't pretend I am always right, but I also will not apologize for having them. I will say what I think is right and wrong.
I darn well know Dubya started the bailouts. Don't have to be reminded. I think he darn well f**ked up those last months. The only thing I can say is he must have pretty much known what Obama was going to do and was not above "setting his table." It would not surprise me to find out he was actually putting in place stuff the Obama drones were covertly asking for. After all, I think he was happy to get out of there, happy it was over, and anxious to get back to Texas. So no hallelujahs for Shrubbie.

If "hating" people who I genuinely believe are destroying this country is wrong, I will pay for my ticket to Hell myself. Sorry if that bothers you.

  • [center:1w4il1hx]"Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.[/center:1w4il1hx]
 
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