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Discussion Starter #1
Strictly hypothetical (the kind of scenarios I love), if a guy (or gal) with a spouse and two young kids (just to set the situation) wanted to start from scratch and assemble the lowest cost complete hunting/TEOTWAWKI arsenal possible, but still have quality weapons, what weapons would make up that arsenal? My own idea of an all purpose hunting/TEOTWAWKI arsenal would, at a minimum, include the following:
* - A quality defensive handgun for the man and wife (one for each);

* - A quality defensive 12 gauge shotgun;

* - A .22 rifle;

* - Some kind of high powered big game rifle;

* - At least one assault/battle rifle;

* - A .22 handgun.

So, with these criteria in mind, what guns would you pick if you wanted to assemble it for the lowest possible cost while still having quality weaponry (and feel free to modify the list of weapons)? (I'm not giving my answers yet because I'm still thinking about it).
 

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Eastern block surplus is they way to go, Mosin nagant, sks, markarov,and so on.
 

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Well as far as handguns look into used police pistols. I recently picked up a Glock 23 for $350+.
Shotguns are varied, look at Remington and Mossberg and decide which one you like best. Both have a a lot of add on stuff on the market.
Spend good money on a hunting rifle, you never go wrong on quality equipment.
El-cheapo "battlerifle" SKS or AK varient.
Ruger 10-22
Used but nice .22 pistol. Ruger,or S&W. Auto or wheelgun?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks. I mainly posted this as a hypothetical question/exercise. I already have most of my own arsenal (though it's always fun to acquire more). I was thinking maybe Makarovs for the pistols, SKS's for the assault rifles, Yugo 8mms for the hunting rifles, Marlin 60s for the .22 rifles, and Ruger Mk IIs for the .22 pistols. Also, probably a Mossy 500 for the 12 gauge.
 

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The problem with using foreign weapons, and calibers, is that ammo won't be readily available for long after a situation erupts. How much 9x18 do you think that you'd find on a Sunday afternoon locally? Or 8mm? Or 7.62x54R or Brit .303? These aren't carried by many small shops, and the larger shops won't be available in such a time. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #6
JR said:
The problem with using foreign weapons, and calibers, is that ammo won't be readily available for long after a situation erupts. How much 9x18 do you think that you'd find on a Sunday afternoon locally? Or 8mm? Or 7.62x54R or Brit .303? These aren't carried by many small shops, and the larger shops won't be available in such a time. :D
Good points, but in a true crisis situation, I don't expect to be able to purchase ANY ammo. The NO/Katrina situation comes to mind, when the only way to get any ammo you didn't already have was pretty much to break into Wal Mart and steal it. Best to have your ammo supply beforehand.
 

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Bare minimum SHTF weapons

I would suggest, that if you were to look for the BARE MINIMUM I would get a NEF rifle.

Get two NEF rifles. Buy one in .308, then buy additional rifle barrels in 223, 30-06, etc.

Buy a second rifle in a common caliber, then purchase additional shotgun barrels.

Now you have just two simple, reliable, rifle/shotgun combos that will take a ton of different calibers.

Pick up a used Glock in 9mm if you can for a handgun.

They may be only single shot, but dreams of you being Rambo in a SHTF situation are very unlikely.
 

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There's the cheapest availible, then there's what I would consider the minimum. Its always better to get a used example of a high quality piece than a new POS. As to handguns, I would suggest used Glocks. For a 22 rifle, a Marlin? For a high powered rifle, a savage, or weatherby vangaurd bolt action in 308. For an "assault rifle", an SKS. If you are concerned with ammo availbility, a used AR might be better, but for the price of any kind of AR, you could get two SKS rifles and two or three thousand rds of ammo. My personal shotgun is a Mossy 590 which I bought used for a very reasonable price... For a .22 handgun, I am not sure what would be the best one on the low end of the budget - I dont own one yet; as I have been shooting my dad's High Standard - but they are NOT cheap. Well, a friend has a "Heritage" .22 single action revolver - there doesnt appear to be anything wrong with it, it came with both 22 LR and 22 Mag cylinders, and they sell for ~$109 new. A single action is rather limited though...
 

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Makorov is nice BUT the CZ-52 is better. (8moa at 100 yards with S&B ammo.) thinking sks as far as cheap and cheap ammo (when ava.) SEMI auto!! bets a bolt gun. Germans remember that from WWII. Mosin is nice though! Moss 12ga. ruger 10/22 thats my 2 cents worth.
 

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For SHTF, you want your selections to be in commonly-available calibers. Pistols: either 9mm or .45ACP, better yet one of each. Rifles, you want .223, 7.62mm NATO, or whichever's more common of .30-06/.308. Think about who you're gonna be dealing with, their loads and select to scavenge off them for ammo sources. I hate the M9/92F with a passion, but if I'm gonna tangle with a force using 'em, I'll try to have one (or a Taurus PT92) so I can scavenge the enemy's mags, too. Rifles, most well-armed opponents'll use AR's, AK's or FALs. Shotguns, 12-gauge that'll take 3" shells.

Bear in mind, all this will vary between individuals' cash supply and physical capabilities; also that what I have is "textbook understanding" as opposed to "experience knowledge".

Library-commando's picks:

PISTOLS
->A cheap single-stack 1911, like an Auto-Ordnance, Rock Island or Springfield GI
->Cheap .22LR, like a used Ruger Mk.II
->Used 9mm, like a Glock 17 or a Beretta 92-clone

SHOTGUNS
->Any 12ga. from Big 5 (but Mossbergs seem to break more)--an Ithaca 37 or Winchester 1897 clone from Norinco's good, but a gun-show used 37-series or 1897's better

RIFLES
->Gun-show AR-15, M14/M1A or AK-clone

All of this is vague and doesn't have prices listed, because of wild price variance between areas. (Example: Some of y'all can get Springfield GI .45's for around $400, while they're usually well over $500 up here near Seattle--BEFORE the 8-9% sales tax)

Anyway, hope this helps. Y'all with experience, if I'm blowing it here, please help set me on the right path again.
 

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ammo/gun commonality

consider convertible cylinder revolvers, like the Ruger single action models, 22LR and 22Mag.

The Smith model 63 is an excellent, small, 22LR revolver. The 10 shot 617 is also excellent, but _not_ small.

Any 22LR revolver will also shoot longs, shorts, & CB caps.

For a reliable center-fire revolver, consider most any .357, and that 357 ammo is available most places, and 38 Special is available everywhere.
 

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I think the answers will vary, a little, based on the population density of their home. If your family is in the city I see no need for the high-powered big game rifle, unless you live in Anchorage. Few of your shots are going to be over 100 yards, if that. And if Bambi's Mom does wander through, the shotgun should be more than enough-we'll make sure Family X gets some a case of slugs. too. For most of the other tasty critters that live there the rimfire will be sufficient. Country folk, OTOH, are advised to get such a rifle, since: 1. Large game is a much more likely possibility, and 2. Wide expanses of field and meadow will require your big cartridge and quality scope, should you have any need to target any sort of creature at a distance.

Ridge Runner's NEF idea is a good one, but another, less expensive option is a second shotgun, a break-open (SS, O/U, or SxS), and a few sets of shell adapters. You never know if you'll find shells while rummaging somewhere, but isn't good to know you'll be able to use that 16/20/28/.410 in your 12 gauge?

For a battle rifle, well, I think a semi-auto rifle is good. Sometimes quantity of shots will be more crucial than quality, although not often.
I'd be quite satisfied with an SKS; robust, fairly accurate, inexpensive, and ammo is fairly common. A semi-auto AK-47 is good, too, as long as you have the discipline not to Rambo away that 30-rd magazine. I don't think our family is going to need something in the AR/FAL category, since the odds of making an offensive is near zero. Family X (and their neighbors, Y, Z, A, and B) are going to be defensive. Rural Family X might find battle rifles that have a longer field of fire a useful addition, however.

Revolver or semi? Whichever you're more comfortable with. Stick to common but potent calibers- 357/38, .45, .44, 9X19. I have nothing but praise for the Makarov, too, but finding 9X18 or even .380 is going to be tough once my cache is empty.

Twenty-twos? A bolt, lever, or pump action are my first choices-again, less risk of Rambo-ing out. You need to lay cover for some reason? that 22 semiauto pistol will keep their heads down as good as the rifle will. And an accurate 22 rifle is going to put critters in your pot, and you want to get used to the idea of conserving ammo. It's way too easy to keep pulling the trigger until you're out; pump, lever, and bolt require an additional action to shoot again. One can still go to near-zombie with those, too, but it's less likely.

And since Family X is starting from scratch, I want the whole family to take a safe handling class, and I want the adults to have some kind of tactical shooting classes, so that if they need to shoot, they don't do more harm than good. I'd want the kids to know how to shoot, although I have strong reservations about teaching a child how to shoot a person from any farther than across the room (If her life is in immediate danger, that is one thing; being able to pick off the enemy at 200 yards is quite another [although I'd be very proud to see her hit the X-ring on a target at that distance, too!]).

I won't recommend specific name brands, because the most important consideration is that each member of Family X is comfortable with. I love the SKS, am neutral on the AK, and loathed the AR. YMMV.
 

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bestseller92 said:
.....lowest cost complete hunting/TEOTWAWKI arsenal possible, but still have quality weapons....
* - A quality defensive handgun for the man and wife (one for each);

* - A quality defensive 12 gauge shotgun;

* - A .22 rifle;

* - Some kind of high powered big game rifle;

* - At least one assault/battle rifle;

* - A .22 handgun...
*Glock in 9 MM or.40 S&W OR .38 Spl snub nose if concealment is needed.
* Rem 870 - slug and chocked barrels.
* .22 Bolt action - shoots any ammo unlike a 10-22 or other semi-auto.
* M1 Garand for both big game and battle rifle. No need for both guns. Cheaper than an M1A. Capable against any North American game you might come across.
* .22 revolver = Mine is S&W, but could be any common brand. Shoots any and all .22 ammo. Semi-auto is fun and nice to own, but you need something that will also shoot cb's, shorts and shot shells.
 

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I agree with the CZ52. At $130 it is the biggest bargain in handguns going. I also heard that 9mm Para barrels are now available and are a drop in item.

The greatest bargain in rifles, since Captain Kirk loaded a tree trunk with blackpowder and rocks. And shot the alien. Is the Civilian marksmanship program M1 rifle and Greek ammo.

I would also consider a hammer-less .38 snubbie. In a SHTF situation. You may run across people who you don't want a confrontation with. Yet need to communicate with. Having your hand in your coat pocket wrapped around a snubbie is the only way to have these conversations. If something happens you fire from inside your coat.

Unless, your wife is a shooter. I would purchase three Ruger stainless steel 10/22 carbine's. I would scope one, and add Williams receiver peep sights to the other two. Ten factory mags each. Grind the base down flat and glue two mags together.
 

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If ammo interchangability is necesary one could get a blackhawk convertible in .357/9mm for a handgun, but the fact that's it's comparatively slow to reload might keep it from being useful.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
SniperBait said:
I agree with the CZ52. At $130 it is the biggest bargain in handguns going. I also heard that 9mm Para barrels are now available and are a drop in item.

The greatest bargain in rifles, since Captain Kirk loaded a tree trunk with blackpowder and rocks. And shot the alien. Is the Civilian marksmanship program M1 rifle and Greek ammo.

I would also consider a hammer-less .38 snubbie. In a SHTF situation. You may run across people who you don't want a confrontation with. Yet need to communicate with. Having your hand in your coat pocket wrapped around a snubbie is the only way to have these conversations. If something happens you fire from inside your coat.

Unless, your wife is a shooter. I would purchase three Ruger stainless steel 10/22 carbine's. I would scope one, and add Williams receiver peep sights to the other two. Ten factory mags each. Grind the base down flat and glue two mags together.
How does one go about acquiring a Civilian Marksmanship program M1?
 

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I'll make mention of the fact that a SHTF scenario is likely temporary, while the TEOTWAWK will be considered more or less permanent. During the first, with little base movement, your ammo supply will usually suffice. Any caliber that you stock will work.

In the second scenario, though, you may well have to relocate, and carrying large quantities of heavy ammo may require multiple trips, a bad thing when you're moving through possibly hostile territory. In this case, locally bartered ammo might just be the ticket. Also, much of the above-mentioned foreign ammo is plentiful, cheaply, in steel-cased form. The ability to reload may become important, and brass cased versions of foreign ammo are going to be more expensive than locally available ammo.

In all, I'll try to stick with American, and popular, calibers. I believe that your fieldcraft in these scenarios will be equally as important as weapons and ammo. Face it, if you head out to check your snares, you won't necessarily be going out equipped to fight a modern battle. Hunting won't result in your hunting rifle, and your assault rifle, being taken with you. Your ability to slip unseen around an enemy, and to be able to set the conditions of battle based on what you have with you, will be much more important than having the perfect weapon, ten miles away.

That said: Shotgun: Remington 870, 12 ga.
Rifle: Savage 10, .308 Win.
.22 Rifle: Marlin .22 Bolt-action, magazine-fed.
.22 Pistol: S&W Model 17/617
Defensive Pistol: Ruger P95DC
Assault/Battle Rifle: M1A Loaded with as many USGI parts added that I could afford.

I chose the M1A due to ammunition commonality with my hunting rifle. The same could be done with the .30-06 and the Garand. This, to me, let's the .223 AR out of the picture. Of course, after your first successful engagement, you will probably be able to pick some up. :D
 

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I also think ex-commie weapons are the way to go. In a SHTF situation, finding ANY ammo is going to be tough. Chances are you're stuck with what you have on hand. In an extended situation the lowly 22lr will be king. Stock up on those, enough for yourself and trading fodder.
 
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