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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Initial reports indicate that a "good woman with a gun" may have engaged the shooters at the Walmart, degrading their ability to commit further mayhem.

As I said, this is an initial report, but if true, it will be intriguing to see how the media spins it...
 

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Walt graham,

SIMPLE. - The "main-SLIME media" will IGNORE the incident, just as they did in other incidents where armed civilians STOPPED a crime.

yours, sw
 

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Later reports state that "good woman" was part of the two person team and it was a murder/suicide pact between them. Not really such a "good" woman."

But early newsreporting is often wrong......
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
But early newsreporting is often wrong......
True enough - that's why I included the caveat.

"One unconfirmed report is that the two exchanged gunfire with a citizen who was carrying a concealed weapon, and that one of the shooters was injured.

A woman was shot and killed just inside the front doors of the Wal-Mart. Her name has not yet been released."


That's what caught my eye...
 

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There has been a very troubling spate of "ambushes" of LEO's in the past year (and I am not denigrating the fact that they killed an innocent person in the WalMart also). Hell, it even happened in Canada last week.

It is a tactical situation that is almost impossible to detect and deal with successfully.

As far as the "This is a revolution" couple...well, theirs ended rather abruptly.
 

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There has been a very troubling spate of "ambushes" of LEO's in the past year (and I am not denigrating the fact that they killed an innocent person in the WalMart also). Hell, it even happened in Canada last week.

It is a tactical situation that is almost impossible to detect and deal with successfully.
As far as the "This is a revolution" couple...well, theirs ended rather abruptly.
Yup. If possible find a seat facing the doorway and the crowd, against the wall. It isn't a perfect solution but atleast it allows for visibility and eliminates a large arc from being a point of attack.
 

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Great, more nut jobs with guns.

Honestly, I wish the solution were as easy as gun control. But the problem is not how they are committing evil, it's the evil itself.

Like the old saying goes..."Cain killed Abel with a rock" The issue was what was in Cain's head and heart (Motive)...the commission of the act is the Means & Opportunity. Motive is always FAR more important than Means and Opportunity. Motive is the root of the issue.
 

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Kevin Gibson; All,

When I was in school, our USAMPS "police shrink"/instructor told us that there were only the following motives for murder:

Anger,
Greed
Jealousy
Lust
Revenge
AND
"Just plain NUTS".

More & more, I see mass killings that fit ONLY: "Just plain NUTS".
(Is it just my imagination that we seem to be raising a LOT of "MONSTERS", who kill W/O logical reason, conscience or even a wish for SELF-preservation???)

The last year that I "was pinned to the badge", I had a case where a 28YO man shot a 7YO girl (who he had never even seen before), while she was waiting to buy an ice-cream bar, just to see if he "could hit her with my .22 rifle".
After we made the arrest, we discovered that he had also shot/killed a 56YO stranger, who was walking his dog in a local dog-park, with a 9mm pistol for NO apparent reason, whatever.
(Those 2 murders were "really uncommon crimes" THEN, but now they seem to be becoming increasingly commonplace.)

I just do NOT understand such behavior BUT I suspect that Mr. Joseph R. Wilcox saved MANY innocent lives at the cost of his own.

yours, sw
 

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Yeah, I can't get my head around this killing just to kill. It's just rage, anger, and wanting to take it all out on just "someone" and it doesn't much matter who. I just can't understand that. I understand anger, but I don't get how killing people is how someone chooses to deal with it. Makes my heart ache.
 

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To ALL,

As of 1800hrs, 09JUN14, WOAI TV & NBC EVENING NEWS have identified Joseph R. Wilcox
ONLY as "an innocent bystander" in the "murder-suicide plot" at the LV Wal-Mart.

NOT ONE WORD, about his WOUNDING one of the 2 cop-killers , who evidently intended an additional "murder spree", with his LICENSED HANDGUN.

ALL that I can think of to say about "that omission" is: [email protected]#$%^&!

yours, sw
 

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From this story:

The pair ran to Walmart where Jerad Miller fired off one round and told people to get out, McMahill said.
A shopper, identified as Joseph Wilcox, told his friend he was going to confront the suspects.
When an armed man tells you to leave, that's probably a really good idea. If he is shooting people, or telling you to get down, or not to move, it's a different situation.

Jim Cirillo, talking about supermarket robbers said,
When we popped out, whoever was on point would take the principal gunman,
the other guy would scan the store looking for the back-up man. That's
what we had to be careful of. I'm sure that we discouraged many back-up
men from taking us on when they saw that our guy was scanning the whole
periphery and watching everything. If I was alone I would be very
reluctant--very reluctant--to take a robber on, not knowing the
supermarket.
That ought to give everyone pause, or at least everyone that isn't as dangerous and as competent as Cirillo.
 

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From this story:

When an armed man tells you to leave, that's probably a really good idea. If he is shooting people, or telling you to get down, or not to move, it's a different situation.

Jim Cirillo, talking about supermarket robbers said,

That ought to give everyone pause, or at least everyone that isn't as dangerous and as competent as Cirillo.
Yep. I am not going to say anything other than everyone needs to understand that if you decide you must act in a situation like this, there are distinct risks...legally, psychologically and physically.

And you won't have much time to mull over choices...
 

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Amen !

Rookie classes always seem to end up in "what if" scenarios. One of the faves was that you are off duty, armed, when some miscreant decides to rob the place.

Some hot dog would always say, "I'll light him up."

That would alway start a debate over how and when the light up should occur.

Finally it would get around to the right answer which was get a good description... memorize everything about the suspect... and only get involved if he starts shooting people or makes a believable threat.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
That ought to give everyone pause, or at least everyone that isn't as dangerous and as competent as Cirillo.
I guess one of the lessons here, not to be Captain Obvious, is that it's every bit as important to know when not to engage...

I'm still clueless as to how Cirillo correctly identified the maker of my belt at SHOT a few years back...
 

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From this story:

When an armed man tells you to leave, that's probably a really good idea. If he is shooting people, or telling you to get down, or not to move, it's a different situation.

Jim Cirillo, talking about supermarket robbers said,

That ought to give everyone pause, or at least everyone that isn't as dangerous and as competent as Cirillo.
VERY good post!!!

If the robber becomes an active shooter, I see that your hand is probably forced and it's time to engage regardless of whether you know the place or the full circumstances or not. People are being killed, you could be next, time to engage.

But until the shooting happens, what ought to be going through every armed citizen is; do I engage or just let it go down. Remember, whatever gets stolen, can be replaced. If it's just a robbery, no one has to die; just let the robbery go down. Once you are convinced it's more than a robbery, that's when things get sticky.

Your post should give everyone a mental note, the moment you suspect a threat, start checking your six NOW, while still keeping your eyes on the threat.

As ALWAYS Tim, very well considered post.
 
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