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Discussion Starter #1
So I'm arguing with a buddy over the pressure in the Buffalo Bore type loads.
I guess they can get a little more than a handloader with special powders or packing the powder in the case techniques, but in my opinion, no miracles.
I'm saying these loads out of a 38 special case are 35K psi. He thinks they have some secret handshake. What say you???

"38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN - 158 gr. Hard Cast Keith 1,250 fps - 20 Round Box

PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN (ITEM 20H)

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357's and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357's develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbo charged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating "outdoor" type of load for their lightweight pocket 357's, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2 inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as the all steel snub nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.

This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.

This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.

We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
•1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
•1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
•1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
•1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
•1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
•1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
• 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
•1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL"


Thanks in advance,
Von
 

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Discussion Starter #2
PS: I chrono'd some of their loads - the lead HP not the keith - out of a model 10 snubbie and:

90 degrees but ammo just went outside from A/C

BB 158 +P lead HP 975 - 1040 fps

Rem 158 +P lead HP 729 - 767 fps (control)

They definitely get what they say they get.
Is it high pressure (especially out of the shorter case) or new technology???

Von
 

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I have never even fired a round of any Buffalo Bore ammo let along pressure tested any.

The original 38/44 load was specifically for the 38/44 Outdoorsman and was somewhere between .38 Spec. and .357 Magnum. It had a short life.

If there is any new technology I am not aware of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks.
We like to discuss such things.
If he had introduced the topic as I've got some BB carry ammo that goes 989 fps out of a 340pd it never would have gone anywhere.
But he (baited me) came across as having a 1200 fps .38 carry load, which of course, I bit on right away.
Maybe somebody will pressure test some.
Von
 

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Velocity and pressure follow each other. You can't increase one without the other.

Also consider this: does making a bullet go faster make it "better"?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Velocity and pressure follow each other. You can't increase one without the other.

Also consider this: does making a bullet go faster make it "better"?
Uhmmm......I think there probably is a minimum threshold where it does, and then after that, no.
In other words, minimum for expansion, for penetration, for trajectory in some situations, etc.
I certainly don't want so much the bullet fails or more recoil than I can handle.
But, for example, the Remington load was pretty anemic, at 750 fps.
I like to see 950ish minimum for 38 calibers, a little less might be OK for 45's.
Just want to expand/break bones/hard cover/glass/etc. Not sure 750 fps will do it even though it might look OK in gelatin.
 

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What is so magic about 950? You might be right but how do you know?

Have you ever seen a wound made by an "anemic" .38?

You obviously understand the downside of recoil but there is a point at which the percentage increase in velocity is way less than the increase in recoil. Most folks never stop to look at a cost/benefit and think that if it kicks more it must be better...
 

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Since the early days of the Internet, there has been a meme (a belief repeated true or not), that 1000 FPS was the point where hollow point ammo became effective. There were some Mak fans who swore by their Cz 82s and 83s, and the PA-63 fans who considered it the "best" combination of weight/power/effectiveness. (Dang thang HURTS when you shoot it.)

I've seen the Feds go from .38 Special 90 grain HPs to the .40 S&W (I don't know what bullet weight is standard if any)

Geoff
Who bets on the 115 gr. Silvertip 9mm and the WWB without the chrome.
 

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Of course that was when effectiveness was based on how many 1/8" pine boards it would penetrate...

At one time the FBI was using a 165 and others 180s.... then Marshall/Sanow convinced Secret Service to use 155s. Now I don't think there is any uniformity at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Charlie, I do a lot of animal control work in my job, and I being a gun guy, I try different things. So no people shot with the 750 fps, but lots of animals.
I also read a lot, and being ex-LE and .mil, watch CCTV videos and dash cams with interest.
I don't think there is a magic number for easy lung shots.
I do think there is a magic number for trajectory more or less depending on your needs and mine are longer range than just a guy trying to stick you up in the parking lot.
The thing that really concerns me is barriers.
In my work that may be a bone or a skull or a pig shoulder/shield.
On the street that is whatever you can get behind after the first shot goes off.
Momentum (heavy slow bullet) seems to work well in fluid filled tissue.
Barriers not so much.
No magic number for them either because they are all different.
But vacinity of 1000 fps seems to be a starting point having studied on it for a while. I'd like more actually, but we have now got pretty successful rounds like the 9mm 147 that seem to work, and not much working on the south side of that, so I don't want to go any lower, and really don't need to (can handle that level of recoil).
I guess I want the fastest, heavy, bullet that I can handle - AND CAN AFFORD. The cost of the SDF ammo is crazy - Buffalo Bore is over a dollar a shot, but gives me what I think is an important 300 fps increase to get me up from the threshold floor into a reliable performance.
I'd like to see the other manufacturers step on the gas pedal a little bit. Every last fps doesn't matter, but 300??? Unless the pressure is unsafe which is why the thread started.

Skeptic49 I think the 1000 fps floor came from gelatin testing, not just old wives tales. The bullets have a window of expansion, and in the old days before hi-tech bullets, it just took velocity to do the job. Now, we have better bullets, so we can get by with less fps - if it meets your other needs like barriers.

Von
 

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•1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
•1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
•1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
•1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
•1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
•1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
• 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
•1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL"[/B]
These velocities don't seem out of line for a HOT .38 load, probably approaching .357 pressures and a bit over industry standards for "regular" .38 .P.

The figures on the "S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958 ). are interesting/troubling. First off, there's no such thing (to my knowledge) as a 6" Combat Masterpiece. If it has a 6" barrel it's a M14 K-38 Masterpiece; if it's a Combat Masterpiece it's a M15 w/4" (or 2") barrel. So, WTF? Also, why did it only get velocities comparable to the other 4" guns on the chart? (Just one of those things, I guess--the famous/legendary Speer #9 manual had a chart in the back where they fired buttloads of .38s and/or .357 out of a whole buttload of different guns and the velocities were all over the place, even varying up to 100 fps from two apparently identical guns of the same make, model, and barrel length.)
 

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BTW: I'm not picking on you but there are so many old-wive's tales... and absolute BS about "best" bullets that "how do you know" has become a mantra for me.

I spent a lot of time at Quantico when the FBI was doing their ammo tests and have talked to a bunch of engineers at ammo companies and seen designs improve to a point that they can make bullets do double back flips if that's what the customer wants...

You are absolutely right about momentum and if we could just get a high capacity semi-automatic that shot a 240 gr. LSWC .44 or 250 gr. .45 at 700-800 fps. I'm pretty sure we'd be fine except for those who believe you gotta have speed and expansion... :argh:

I'm curious about your concern over barriers because the folks who really need to shoot through them usually have rifles
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Charlie, I agree except:

1. I'm lumping animal skulls, bones, etc into "barriers".

2. There are quite a few videos of gunfights that are more extensive than just a mall parking lot holdup. Some vehicle/gun store/gas station/bar/casino/bank/road rage/etc fights last a minute or two and after the first shot everyone gets behind what they "think" is cover. It isn't just a LE and .mil need anymore.

For me, the animal need is daily. The gunfight need is VERY low probabability, much less one that goes on a couple of minutes. But why not have that area covered if you can?? I have NO problem with you thinking outside of the box. I actually like it. But hard objects are part of a bullet's possible path, and I want a little velocity to cover that area. I actually wonder if people like me who are concerned about it shouldn't just load a few hollowpoints followed by FMJ follow ups for an economical solution to the guy hiding behind something.

Von

PS: One of my carry guns for pigs is a 396NG 44 spl 200XTP at 850 - 900 and it works fine at contact distances, although minimal expansion. I hunt with wide flat nose lead rounds and they work as good or better than most JHP's. They don't work so good in the rifling S&W uses in the night guard, and it only zeroes with 200 gr bullets. I would have NO problem carrying the gun for SDF, although only 5 shots makes me a little nervous.
 

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My biggest complaint is that people think that what the FBI considers a requirement is also a requirement for them.
I don't think I want a load that has excess penetration.
I think a nice 200-230 L-SWC at 750-850fps will do all the damage I would need at normal anti-social encounters.
I have seen too many HP failures to want a bullet that is already large enough (something that starts with double digit millimeters) and, if it didn't cost so much, a .50 might be nice.
However, my opinion is not for others unless they come to the same conclusion.
Finally, what the FBI and LEOs need is a round that actually HITS the damn target and not just filling the air up with lead projectiles as fast as possible. How many rounds, on average, do LEOs fire for every intended target that is hit?
 

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noylj said:
How many rounds, on average, do LEOs fire for every intended target that is hit?
I don't know the # of rounds, but I recall a FBI study that indicated that LEOs miss, or hit the wrong ..."target" in 11% of the times they fire their weapons on duty.
The same study indicated civilians do the same thing 2% of the time.
The main factor involved seemed to be not marksmanship, per se, but situation awareness. An armed civie being there at the onset has some idea who is supposed to be there and who started what, while a police officer, responding to a radio call from dispatch that emanated from a 911 call may not be aware the armed guy there is a victim, not a criminal. Sorta like that dynamic....
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Tommy gun your miss percentages sound extremely low. I think people miss more like over 2/3 of the time, average.

Noylj, I like a lot of penetration just because I don't know how much I'll need. If I actually point the gun the right way, and don't flinch, I want a hole through all barriers, organs, and bones to then stop in a good backstop.

Von
 

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Just my .02

1 - There are no free lunches. Increased pressure, or maintaining pressure for longer duration's is how you increase velocity.

2 - Note that Buffalo Bore is NOT a member of SAAMI

3 - I don't see how you can obtain such velocities out of a standard pressure .38 Special.

4 - My personal experience in re-creating the old .38/44 Heavy Duty load resulted in pressure judging right up there against .357 magnum levels.

5 - The text says the load is safe out of any modern .38 Special; I believe them. 99.9% of all .38 Special revolvers are capable of handling easily twice SAAMI pressure from a safety standpoint. Now from a longevity standpoint, things get much more complicated.
 

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Tommy gun your miss percentages sound extremely low. I think people miss more like over 2/3 of the time, average.
........Von
Not mine in any case: F.B.I.

I am not certain it is statistically sound to conflate a study that compared the "accuracy" of LEO shootings to Civie shootings with a purpose not originally sought by the study itself.
If a person fired six rounds in this study and hit the right perp only once it would be counted as a "correct" shooting because the shooter hit the individual intended and it was a justifiable self-defense shooting.
I recall no part of the study indicating number of hits and misses, such as shooting of statuary or passing rubber chickens.:rolleyes:
See what I'm getting at?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Kevin Gibson, I think you have summed up my suspicions, and I think number 5 is probably the answer to the test/how they get away with it/too bad if your gun is only good for a few hundred rounds but nobody will shoot too many out of an airweight anyway - ask me how I know.:mrgreen:

Von
 

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Well, not that you mention it Kevin perhaps they are following the well worn path of Cor Bon who now is a SAAMI member
 
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