[Guest]

RBCD, or the original Glaser or THV-Arcane rounds? How close do they come to the claimed 2000+ fps? In your opinion, were they loaded really "hot"?

 

[Charlie Petty]

Yeah I did a long time ago. Don't remember specifics but most were proportional to bullet weight and very max loads.

I made the late Joe Zambone of the original Magsafe very mad at me when I said that I didn't like prefragmented or gimmick ammo. Still don't.

 

[Fernando Coelho]

I pressure tested and chronographed MagSafe back when Joe was still running things. His advertised velocities were very close to what I got. In most instances, I saw velocities that were a little faster. Pressure wise, the loads I tested were within acceptable limits. Those ultra light bullet weights was the reason the MagSafe achieved those speeds. Of all the pre-fragmented ammunition I've ever tested I would say that the MagSafe was/is the better design.

Charlie - I can see Joe getting a little hot if you told him his ammo was "gimmick ammo". I still remember the multi page letter he sent off to Ed Sanow after one of Ed's articles.

Joe was a great guy and I still miss him.

 

[Charlie Petty]

I doubt that he sent me the same one, but he was pretty thoroughly po'd. Actually I visited his place and was impressed with how labor intensive manufacture was, but philosopically I still prefer more conventional stuff.

 

[Guest]

I am constantly hearing that it's

"impossible" to get 2200 fps with a ccw autopistol. I always counter that it's eminently feasible with 38 Casul, 9x25 Dillion, 10mm, .45 Super, 357 Sig. It's just a question of the right load and a lw enough bullet.

 

[Fernando Coelho]

When we were working on load development for the .40 Super, we achieved 2,015 fps with a 135 grain JHP from a S&W 4506. It was at that point I decided to back off the factory load to 1,800 fps. There were a few reasons for this. One was the safer pressures. Another was the bone head factor. As tempting as it was, I didn't want our factory load at an advertised 2,000 fps at the risk of reloaders out there thinking they could top it. Knowing the pressures we were dealing with, I know reloaders would get hurt. Last but definitely not least was bullet performance. The .40 caliber bullets we had in inventory were coming apart way too early, penetrating a miserable 4-5 inches in ordnance gelatin. While the block would get tossed off the table and torn open, it was still a shallow wound. I could have increased the antimony content of the core, changed the shape and depth of the cavity, etc, to make the bullet penetrate deeper. It just wasn't worth the effort.

MagSafe utilizes much lighter bullets. In .45 caliber they ranged at one time from 88 grains to 102 grains. Now that is very, very light for a .45 cal bullet. Even then, the 102 grain Defender was not able to hit the 2,000 mark. It took the lighter KD and SWAT loads to do it.

In the end it doesn't prove very much. With the bullets that are currently on the market, you get very poor penetration at those high speeds. I've yet to see a bullet fired from a handgun that hits 2,000 fps and penetrate to 12 inches.

 

[Guest]

If all you want is 2000 fps and 20" of penetration with

Simply use the 155 gr Lee swc mold in .45, and use "non lead" solder as the casting alloy. It's 95% tin, 5% antimony, and It is readily available at plumbing supply stores, at about $8 a lb (in my area, sw CO) Such bullets drop from the mold at about 100 grs. Hollowbased in the lathe to 90 grs, it's really easy to get them to 2000 fps, in a 5" barrel. 12 grs of Bullseye is the charge I used, and it had no pressure signs at all, in a fully supported Spld Barrel. CCI Mag pistol primers, R-P brass, sized .451", using the Lee sizer in a reloading press, and Lee's Liquid Lube. A 3/8" centerdrill was used to hollowbase the bullets. It's a very simple process, once you make an aluminum "mandrel", slit 3 ways, to hold the bullets in the lathe chuck, without damaging them. They are very hard, and don't lead the bore much, if any more, than do the plus P 158 gr lhp .38's. They penetrate more like 20" of jello, not a mere 12".

 

[Fernando Coelho]

And why would I want to do this? I think Peter Pi would love your idea, though.

 

[Guest]

for the same reason you think you want

12" of penetration? In order to get an exit wound and blood trail on deer? I'll take 8" of penetration, and massive shock and tissue destruction, over 12" of penetration and very little shock or tissue damage, any day.

The swc is a hunting load, for the larger animals. For defensive use, I favor using the .460 Rowland case, another 2 grs of Bullseye, a larger ID, not quite as deep hollowbase, a hollowpoint, a deepened grease groove, an .008" slit in the nose,(almost back to the grease-groove. and another 300 fps(ie, 2300 fps, with a 70 gr bullet). It breaks into 3 large frags at impact, with the rear one being a "full wadcutter" shape, nose heavy for best penetration (because of the hollowbase). It's necessary to size it .453", tho, in order to keep it in the barrel long enough to get the higher velocity. This load has no more recoil than .45 ACP ball ammo, and it developes 800 ft lbs of energy. Creating 3 wound tracks with each shot makes it an extremely effective load indeed

 

[Fernando Coelho]

All I can say is you are one interesting person. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Guest]

Ken Hackathorn says I should be marketing

these bullets, but I'd have to ask $2 each for the prefrags. Back in my heyday, Mickey Fowler told me I was the fastest gunhandler he'd ever seen.

 

[Guest]

I'm trying to talk Joe at MagSafe into developing a 500 S&W for use with their 4" carry 500. For some reason he doesn't think there is a market. :?: :lol:

 

[Fernando Coelho]

Just so we are clear for everyone, Schmit is referring to a different Joe.

Schmit - you would do that! :lol:

jumpy - 12 grs of Bullseye for your load may show no signs of pressure, but that doesn't mean the pressure isn't high or even well past the limits. The rule of thumb in ballistics is if there are signs of pressure, you went too far a few grains earlier. I'm not trying to argue with you over this, but I have shot quite a bit of ammo through pressure barrels using both an Oehler 43 and 83. I lost track of how many times ammo that appeared okay in every aspect happened to be overpressure. When primers started to look bad, we were well into the over-pressure blow something up levels.

 

[Guest]

I"m well aware of that, but

9 grs of Bullseye didn't even cycle the slide (20 lb Wolf spring) So, no, I dont consider the 12 gr load even remotely close to what a fully supported barrel can handle. It doesn't even bulge the case as much as do Remington Plus P 185 gr jhp's, in an unsupported barrel. These bullets are basically GONE from the muzzle before you can build much pressure at all. The bullet lube and the hollowbase see to that, I guess.

 

[Charlie Petty]

Do you listen?

Fernando told you he had done pressure testing and you want to argue.

Blow yourself up if you wish but just because something hasn't gone wrong doesn't mean it won't and since you've "published" it you open yourself up to liability.

 

[mikegunner]

Fernando ---

I remember at Gunstock 98 when you and Tom B. had the .40 Super developmental rounds. For those who did not witness it, pictures of it are at http://www.thegunzone.com/people/gunstock98.html .

Were these rounds going in the 2000fbs range?? On of my main memories was how far the flame came out the end of the 1911 when that gun was shot. Heck, in the picture, you can see the > round was far into the second block of gelatin, and that was after going through that roast!!

Mike

 

[Fernando Coelho]

I hate to admit it but I'm not sure if that was the 2,000 fps or 1,800 fps load. The mind is a terrible thing.

 

[Richard Jefferies]

When I was heavily into IPSC, I bought a Springfield Armory Custom Shop .45 with a single port compensator. Winchester had just introduced SuperLite powder, and VIC had just introduced the 152 gr. SWC .452 bullets. I wanted to see if I could make my .45 behave like some of the .38 Supers I was seeing most people shoot, and so I started fooling around with loads. I achieved a velocity of 1365 fps using the SuperLite and VIC bullets out of eithe commercial or milspec brass. I had someone video tape me shooting it in the prone position, and then videotape someone else shooting a .38 Super with a triple-port comp from the prone position. My gun wasn't recoiling any different than his was, so I was a happy camper....until.....

I tried the same load out of my 1987 SA Defender pistol. TREMENDOUS muzzle blast, and horrendous recoil. One magazine and I quit.

All this happened before Winchester had any data out for SuperLite. I figured I was doing OK, because the brass didn't look abnormal in any way, and primer flatening was only slightly greater than with factory loaded ammo. Then the data for the powder finally came out, and I took a look at it. I stopped using the load, and decided to shoot my Defender with 200. gr bullets at 900fps instead. It seems I was exceeding factory recommendations by a HUGE percentage!

Moral-just because everything looks OK and the gun doesn't blow up, it doesn't mean you're shooting a "safe" load.

 

[niemand]

Yeah I did a long time ago. Don't remember specifics but most were proportional to bullet weight and very max loads.

I made the late Joe Zambone of the original Magsafe very mad at me when I said that I didn't like prefragmented or gimmick ammo. Still don't.

Loadings utilised were "Precision sifted/blended" Accurate Arms Propellents, burning rates from "3.75" to "6.25" contingent upon calibre/weight.

I know, as Original "Mag-Safe" prototypes (With drawn Gilding-Metal or Copper envelopes turned on screw-machine, both swaged-to-shape) were developed in my shop.

"Pre-fragmented" perfectly fine for job, problem exists only in execution per "Melting Cores out" as opposed to Drawn/Machined. Joe was bit of "Techno-Phobe".

 

[Dean Speir]

Joe was bit of "Techno-Phobe"

Geez, Louise! Do ya think?!?

A recovering alcoholic, recovering gunwriter, and Gawd-fearing church-goer, he was nothing if not convinced.

Yeah, he eschewed certain technological advances, but by the same token, he also accomplished things which he didn't know he wasn't supposed to be able to do.

I have enough iterations of Joe's rounds (probably dating to 1986) that I could open a Musee de MagSafe… remember the different colored epoxy matrices to aid the ME to identify the particular round during a post-mortem? He shouldn't've abandoned that feature… the one path report I have from an actual MagSafe anti-personnel deployment, so thoroughly confused was the ME that he had no idea what the two men had been shot with, and gave it a kinda "let's go home" call! This was the Brooklyn, NY, jeweler from ten years ago who blew up a couple of street thugs who'd tried to take down his shop… he'd shot the two of them a total of three times with a Walther PPK/s, resulting in one DRT and another DOA down the block.) I called Joe and told him that he was at last validated with a documented street shooting, and that he could now mercifully forgo the anecdotal tales of decapitated deer and alligators in extremis. He shrugged and said, "I've told you for the past eight years… my stuff works!" (He phlegmatically accepted the path report when I obtained it, but I'm not sure he ever bally-hoo'd it any.)

But I also recall the home-made "release agent" Joe fashioned to allow his various sized pellets a greater dispersion in soft tissue so that there wouldn't be just a clump of hardened epoxy and shot, in effect a single projectile. It was a brew Joe concocted in his single-wide, of carbon tetrachloride and mineral oil, and I actually broke down one of those rounds to test the efficacy of the stuff, and it seemed to work pretty effectively.

Sometime in the not too distant future I'm going to publish the last E-mail Joe sent me several weeks prior to his terminal MVA… it will have been about five years, a suitable period, I think, and it shows a happy man, doing things he enjoyed… and, of course, in his advocation and recreation, pushing the envelope as he had in his occupation.