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Discussion Starter #1
Speaking as someone who's frequently stumbled around in the dark, in any and all ways you care to take that statement, I find light rails to be a brilliant solution to the problem of identifying and decisively engaging adversaries in lighting deficient enviornments. A weapon mounted light doesn't eliminate the need for a separate light, but beats the dog feces out of the various alternatives.

That last statement specifically includes the 357 Sig, which acts as it's own illumination system and distraction device upon being fired.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

That last statement specifically includes the 357 Sig, which acts as it's own illumination system and distraction device upon being fired.
Amen... I was at a low/no light class and somebody down at the end of the line had one...the first time he shot, everyone stopped and watched
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

Charlie Petty said:
Amen... I was at a low/no light class and somebody down at the end of the line had one...the first time he shot, everyone stopped and watched
It's a shame we won't be treated to some of Tom's special loads next weekend.

It's always a hoot to see the terrain ignite betwixt yourself and the target.

And witness first hand a miniature breach in the space time continuum... :)
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

Naaah, the .357 Sig is a piker compared tot he 5.45X39 in a select-fire AK-74. I was at Gunsite with a group of Air Force security police who were using them. (They were on something like their sixth small-arms class in as many months, and were bored with the M4)

When the night-fire started, I had thought that downtown Paulden had been nuked. Each shot was accompanied by a flash that would have singed the hide of Godzilla. Bursts were beyond impressive.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

I always thought the muzzle device on the AK74 was to provide Hind 24 pilots & gunners with positive ID of their own troops. [ FAC: "Ivan, look for the big ball of light on the mountainside. That's US!" ]
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

Speaking of AK muzzle-breaks, I guess we should post this under 'Mother of Invention'. I remember in late 69 hearing of a failed VC/Mr.Charles Ambush. Basically, it was a classic L-type that they strung on, unfortunately, on the lead element of a Company-sized Night Movement. They got flanked rather quickly(Marines are good for that) and it ended badly for Charlie(No relation to our esteemed Mod.). Upshot was what they discovered. Several of the AK47s had pieces of C-Rat Cans wired over the top of the Muzzle-breaks to hide the flash. They burned through but not for at least two magazines.Interesting.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

Patrick I assume the ammo they were using had been appropriated elsewhere and wonder if the maker lacks the powder technology in flash supression. Wonder who makes the ammo the "insurgents" are using.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

They wouldn't say where the guns or ammo came from, just that they had been "cluttering up the armory" before they checked them out for the class.

As I recall from the headstamps, the ammo was mil-spec Soviet-made (Russian) ammo. This class was in 1993, well before there was any other available, by any means.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

What's involved in making a powder flashless? Is there some offending component that needs to be refined out or is it simply a matter of making the compound more efficient so that a larger percentage of the energy release is pushing lead rather than illuminating your position?
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

Graduate level explanation of muzzle flash.

Not unburned powder. The expanding ball of gases leaving the muzzle are at a high enough temperature that they can become incandescent, flash. The amount they do depends n the amount of heat available, and the incandescent spectrum of the propellant combustion byproducts.

Flash hiders work by mixing the gases. instead of an expanding bubble of gas, they create turbulence, and the gases are both quickly cooled, and the surface area available to the eye, of incandescent gases, is diminished.

Flash suppresants are chemicals that have, as they combustion byproducts, compounds with different incandescent temperatures or spectrums. (A lot more flashes in NVG, there is so much heat. Everything flashes in thermal sights.)

Muzzle brakes flash due to the focusing of the gas flow into channeled directions, allowing more of the gases to slam directly into the atmosphere without turbulent mixing. Flash suppresnats added to the powder diminish the flash from brakes, but there is still some.

Apparently the Soviets didn't give a rat's butt about flash, and saved on the chemicals for flash suppressants.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

Patrick Sweeney said:
Graduate level explanation of muzzle flash.
I'm happy to say I understood most of that.

So, essentially, SovBloc propellants are engineered like their weapons or their spacecraft for that matter; good enough to get the job done and no more.

I would think that they would have lobbied for a less here I am, shoot me type of powder so I'm assuming they've upgraded.

How are Oberon and Charley?
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

i was told that some part of flash is unburnt gases being released to the oxygen rich atmosphere, which allowed a flash of combustion as the flammable hot but unoxygenated gases received oxygen. The man works with my wife and is a engineer phd level at one of the largest munitions suppliers in the world.

He said that confined inside the barrel, at the pressures and temps involved, the only "flame" would be a deep purple to navy blue that would be nearly invisible to the human eye, similar to how methanol flames are not visible to the human eye at the temps they take place at on hot race cars. Once the pressures reduce and more oxygen is consumed, the flash takes place. They try very hard in many of their loads to tailor the fuel to the chambering, and have it exhaust itself before it reaches more 02.
 

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Flash 3

Wish I could make it to GunStock; maybe next year. I still have a few rounds of .38Spl"+P+" "Treasury Load" Good for an M1 tank-like fireball from an SP101!
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

shep854 said:
Wish I could make it to GunStock; maybe next year. I still have a few rounds of .38Spl"+P+" "Treasury Load" Good for an M1 tank-like fireball from an SP101!
shep854:

When I was teaching full time, my favorite example of such things was the then Remington-manufactured 125gr JHP .357 Magnum round.

As people were still commonly employing 2½" Model 19's and 66's back then (as well as 3" 13's and 65's), I used them as "demonstration" rounds in our low light classes as cartridges that could not only "give you away" but that could (in some people) actually cause either a mental or physiological disorientation.

It was like having a streetlight at the end of your arm.

Hopefully, this graphic illustration got at least some of our students (usually range people at their departments back home) to rethink everything from their choice of ammo (although I must admit that I liked this particular load a lot) to how they trained with it and prepared their people to fight with it in such situations.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

I know, the difference between 125s and 140s(Which I carried in my 66Snubbie) is, quite literally, day and night.
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

When the state first mandated night qualification our duty load was the 158 gr. +P LHP. I don't remember the flash as too severe and in the days before night sights you did the best you could with the first round and then the flash helped establish proper sight alignment.

I got some of the Q4070 .38 +P+ stuff and recall a flash that was huge and very reddish. Back then I believed you really shouldn't shoot +P in J frames so I used the 110 gr. Silvertip in my Chief... it was bright white and almost blinding
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

This end of the thread is taking me back....my first night qual with Federal 125 /.357 :shocked:
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

I have a .45 colt load that is herco and a light crimp, with some 190 grain SWC's that produces an amazing amount of flash.

We discovered it by accident and my daughter liked it so much its one of the range staples. She has found it particularly useful in deflating male ego's when some stud muffin (her term) is trying to show his GF how manly he is by shooting a .40 G. She grabs her Blackhawk and loads the "shock and awe" rounds and lets fly. fireball about 2 foot diameter and a good 3-4 feet long....impressive as heck to see, only about 800 FPS worth of push, but the shriveling is almost audible...
 

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Re: Softer-recoiling 1911

P. Marlowe said:
When I was teaching full time, my favorite example of such things was the then Remington-manufactured 125gr JHP .357 Magnum round.

As people were still commonly employing 2½" Model 19's and 66's back then (as well as 3" 13's and 65's), I used them as "demonstration" rounds in our low light classes as cartridges that could not only "give you away" but that could (in some people) actually cause either a mental or physiological disorientation.

It was like having a streetlight at the end of your arm.

Hopefully, this graphic illustration got at least some of our students (usually range people at their departments back home) to rethink everything from their choice of ammo (although I must admit that I liked this particular load a lot) to how they trained with it and prepared their people to fight with it in such situations.
One of two reasons I have completely moved away from the .357 Magnum as a defensive round. The muzzle flash is horrendous, as is the noise. Set one off inside a home at night and instantly it's a fair fight, because everyone's deaf and blind.

The .357 is a superb cartridge, but it has too many critical flaws in my opinion to warrant consideration as a true defensive round. Especially considering the current state of .38 Special +P loads, there's just no reason to use the .357 anymore.

Even in my big, heavy S&W 27 which gets carried in the field with magnum loads; if it pulls duty on my hip in town for defense, or next to the bed, the magnums come out and the Special +P's go in.

A third consideration, but a much lesser one, is recoil. Recoil from a .357 is fairly stinging to get performance that essentially matches the .45 ACP. Still, most can overcome this one.
 
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