[Diamondback]

Guys, between WA I-594, Amnesty for Border Jumpers and Ferguson, I've been starting to think about skipping investing the nest-egg I had started and putting it into an HD carbine or shotgun and ammo instead.

Budget is $1500 or less, bearing in mind the overinflated Puget Sound-area gun prices.

Physiological requirements: I'm a short dude (5' 6") with a misshaped upper torso so I can't form the kind of "shoulder pocket" needed for firing from the shoulder--AK's and 12-gauges each wrecked my shoulder for a couple weeks after firing, and while I have achieved minute-of-milk-jug with a 07/SOT friend's full-auto Thompson that was with the stock under my armpit. Secondary users are similar height but both morbidly obese (my mother and my aunt, each ~half-again my bulk or a bit more; both aging so take that into account too).

Initial thoughts: This is NOT a good excuse to buy that Garand, M14 or Saiga-12 I've been drooling over. Personal preference for a carbine would be something like an M1 Carbine or maybe a Ruger Mini-14, though I'm also open to AR platforms. Shotguns, well... with my shoulder issue (I can hold a 5" 1911 on extended firing position for extended periods just fine, but can't seem to make any longarm stock fit me) I'm thinking that using this as an excuse to buy a coachgun is as frivolous tactically as it would be ill-advised for me biomechanically--big concern is, something that will deal enough damage while still being controllable for someone with my issues to make the damage I will absorb from it in return "worth it".

Structural scenarios, two possible. One, doublewide mobile with residential neighbors on one side only across a treeline/wooded area, other sides vacant lot or business; the other imitation-brick over wood rambler-type built in the '50s, corner lot with berm across one street and neighbors across the other, behind and alongside.

Budget doesn't need to include a LOT, but needs to include a reasonable "starter" supply of mags and both training and duty ammo too, along with essential supplies like cleaning kit.

Would appreciate any advice the Tribal Elders here may offer... this is kind of on-the-rush, and I know I'm not gonna be able to "buy skill" or have a lot of time to train up--so the question is how to make best use of what meager time and budget I DO have as a start, while training and setting cash aside toward upgrading as time and budget allow.

 

[TommyGunn]

My advice:
I would go with an AR-15. Low recoil, plentiful ammo, of a reasonable caliber. The 5.56mm. round is often derided as a "poodle-shooter" round, and while it really is quite effective on poodles, [] it has demonstrated 50 years worth of service on human targets. For self defense you can get hollowpoints which make it better than the ball ammo the military is stuck with.

In theory I'd agree with the M-1 Carbine being a good choice. My reluctance to suggest it stems from the fact that .30 carbine ammo is not as available as 5.56mm. and the military weapons themselves are getting rare. Yes there are reproductions but their history is problematic, with some being bad and others being fair -- but it's been observed even the good repros really aren't "quite" what the WW2 produced originals were.
.30 Carbine is available in softpoint and hollowpoint rounds which are more expensive (and a bit harder to find in my experience) and ought to be tested for performance in a particular carbine. The M-1 carbine was designed for use with ball ammo and some carbines have been known to be unreliable with soft nose & H.P. ammo. The cure would likely be polishing the feedramp I would guess.
But, that is yet more argument for the AR-15 platform. Additionally the AR is really adaptable. Good iron sights are available, as well as good red dots and holographic types. You get a wide choice there a LOT more than the old WW2 carbine would offer.
Good ARs are available new, in a price range that the old carbines are approaching when they're used, nearly 70 years old or more in many cases.
Beyond that, it's your choice.
I've heard good things about the Smith & Wesson AR. In addition Windham is OK, Colt is very good, Noveske and Bravo Company Mfg. are sorta the cream of the cream. I'd stick with the mid brands, looking for one that comes equuiped with sights leaving you the choice of getting an optic as you need, or putting that off until the future if you choose.

Just my 2¢. Hope it helps.

 

[stand watie]

Diamondback,

IF I was in your physical situation (As you may know, my beloved is in a wheelchair & paralyzed from mid-chest down, so "count your blessings". - She still shoots a Colt's Police Positive/Detective Special quite competently. - IF an intruder gets past "Max", her 80#, protective Boxer, she is capable of handling the situation.), I would buy at least one semi-auto handgun in a "serious caliber" & likely more than one.
NOTE: An intruder would be WISE to avoid our property, as Max is always within her "arms-reach" & truthfully I doubt that she can "call him off" of an intruder, once he "latches on". - At the very least, an intruder would be BADLY MAULED.

MAYBE even an AR pistol & a .45ACP SA pistol. = Such an AR handgun, with a few 30-round magazines full of JHP, is fairly serious SHTF medicine even disregarding the .45 pistol.
(As most "old-timers" here know, I'm not "a really big fan of" the AR-15/M-16.)

Best Wishes, sw

 

[Diamondback]

Thanks, TG--if it helps, WA State normal seems to be about 25% again Rest Of Country price.

Davidson's "Gun Genie" lists a DPMS for about $950 final cash-price in my AO, though Quantico Tactical lists a Windham SRC on clearance for $770 plus tax etc. Should I be wary of the carbon-fiber receiver?

 

[Diamondback]

@SW, believe me, I'm grateful it's not worse YET every day--I had to deal with my grandmother's fall into senile dementia too until the Lord finally called her home.

Dogs aren't an option here, they and I have major problems--I'm just one of those people who turns Lassie into Cujo faster than an eyeblink--but it's somewhat compensated for by a quirk of my own neuropathology in the senses department.

Handguns, I also get to deal with "Unwilling to Train" too--The Crab made up her mind to drop her permit this renewal and tried to browbeat me into it too. (At this moment I'm not carrying, caught in limbo between expiration of my old permit and issue of the new.) Sidearms, other than that particular instance cited right now anytime not otherwise prohibited my old .45 I've had since college is either on me or in my "tool bag"* within quick draw reach... the rub is, with 594... well, Washington State is about to become even worse than California on "transfers w/o background checks", including loans or even just grabbing a family member's in emergency. (Funny is, 594 sponsor Paul Allen's private air force, including NAZI TERROR WEAPONS and a Scud missile, gets a free pass...) I'm of half a mind to just establish a Family Firearms Trust naming us all co-owners of everything, which would at least get the three of us around the bullsh-t for "transfers"...
*First aid kits for me, the laptop and the iron; assortment of extra preloaded w/JHP mags and a brick of hardball Just in Case; extension cords and spare chargers; the usual crap that doesn't fit in either pockets or laptop case.

 

[stand watie]

Diamondback,

IF I was you & wanted an AR handgun, I would assemble my own from a "pistol registered" lower receiver, a 7.5 or 10 inch handgun-length barrel & a couple hundred bucks worth of surplus parts. = Maybe a total of 500.oo, complete.
(Runner-Runner Guns of McKinney TX sells a stripped pistol lower receiver for about 125.oo & there are LOTS of "pistol length" barrels & "partial m-16 kits" around at places like J&G.)

As T.E. Lawrence said, "The Chinese say that a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step, so let us get on with it lads."

yours, sw

 

[t-star]

I dunno- maybe mini 14 if you want 223- ( yea, I can hear all the nay sayers) but in your situation, i'd go with a MARE'S LEG in 44 or 45 45 colt- we're not allowed handguns in Canada except for ranges, so the mare's leg is all we can use- and if you can( I don't know about us interstate laws) get the gun from montana( tony's gun in havre) - and it's good for el griz too- as far as changing a female I gave up on that years ago. the other idea is when you " show ' her the gun, if it's an ar, you get " isn't that the gun the army uses " routine- use a conventional and you get " isn't that cute"- that's the way the female mindset works- why are there PINK guns?

 

[stand watie]

Diamondback,

You might also look at a "trapper length" lever-action Marlin in .357 Magnum. = My little-brother-of-the-heart LIKES his & it can be fired with one hand if necessary.
(Btw, his GF likes shooting the "trapper". She says that it makes her feel like Annie Oakley.)

yours, sw

 

[t-star]

I never saw a job that a 357 could do that a 44 couldn't do better- mine aren't 44 full blown magnum loads but fall into somewhere between 44 special and 44 magnum- same powder charge, just different caliber

 

[TommyGunn]

Thanks, TG--if it helps, WA State normal seems to be about 25% again Rest Of Country price.

Davidson's "Gun Genie" lists a DPMS for about $950 final cash-price in my AO, though Quantico Tactical lists a Windham SRC on clearance for $770 plus tax etc. Should I be wary of the carbon-fiber receiver?

Yeah... I hate to say this because my late father worked for Union Carbide and carbon fiber was his business. I'd stick with the standard AR metal upper & lower. Some types of carbon fiber are terrific and have been used in everything from furnace insulation to ICBM nose-cones. Some parts of the Navy/Marine Harrier jump-jet, as well as other jets, are carbon-carbon or carbon fiber of some sort.
For a gun I might be depending on for self defense I'd buy a straight out conventional metal AR, nothing ... "experimental."

 

[stand watie]

TommyGunn,

AGREED. = I really don't see a good reason for carbon-fiber lower receivers, when there are good-quality/reasonably-priced alloy lowers seemingly everywhere.

yours, sw

 

[stand watie]

t-star,

AGREED. - BUT I was talking to someone who may have problems handling recoil AND a .357MAG is a GOOD STOPPER on human-size & WT-size targets.

My all-time favorite duty weapon was a 4" barreled Model 29 S&W, that I shot hundreds of times with lead SWC .44SPL. - While I never had to shoot a person with it, it did a ONE-shot STOP on a very large/aggressive stray dog, that was trying to take my throat out.

yours, sw

 

[TommyGunn]

I doubt a carbon fiber lower will make a difference in recoil but if it does, the carbon lower will be lighter, thus there will be more felt recoil ....just a thought!

 

[Kevin Gibson]

The M1 Carbine is nearly ideal, or a very simple, lightweight AR-15. The Mini-14 is a wonderful rifle, I really like them, but they are not a true military rifle. They have never benefitted from the de-bugging that military service brings and they are problematic when worked really hard. The M1 Carbine is more than a military design, it’s the actually military rifle; meaning you can buy a GI Carbine that was actually issued to our troops. The advantage of that is you have the peace of mind knowing every last part on that rifle is made to GI spec, the FULL spec, not just exterior dimensions. M1 Carbines are extremely reliable, they’re simple and 5 minutes instruction and anyone looks like an expert shooting one. On the down side, they’re getting expensive. Ammo wise, FMJ ammo has great barrier penetration better than most .223 rounds, but the terminal performance of a 110gr FMJ isn’t exactly exciting. It’s not bad, but it’s not really great either. Load it with JHP’s and it becomes a very different animal, essentially a .357 magnum semi-auto carbine. JHP’s will produce wounds and incapacitate SIGNIFICANTLY better than .223. But JHP’s are very expensive and hard to come by. Most carbines will feed JHP’s just fine if the round is loaded correctly. The trick with JHP’s is overall cartridge length, the Carbine doesn’t care for rounds that are significantly shorter than the military FMJ; seat the JHP’s out far enough, it will work just fine. Load a 100 grain JHP and seat it to the canneluer and it probably won’t work. 15 round magazines work perfect, and good 30 round magazines will work, but they can still be a bit testy. It’s the same problem as the M16 30 rounder with the straight, then curved magazine.

The AR is probably your best bet based on economics. Ammo is cheaper, magazines while about the same price are much more available, parts are abundant and probably cheaper (parts for M1 Carbines are still abundant), and it should be easy to configure everything the way you want. My recommendation would be to go short and light for an urban defensive carbine. As for Carbon Fiber receivers, I’ve heard nothing but problems with them, so for a defensive arm, I’s stick with forged aluminum. I’m not a fan of drop in match triggers, they don’t do well with dust and dirt. Me personally, I’d just learn to live the 6lb standard trigger because they’re faultless and just work forever. An AR with the standard trigger, I can still hit anything I want quite easily out to 500 yards, well beyond that with optics.

Really ought to pick up 6 mags minimum , 10-12 is ideal. The absolute best AR magazine I’ve ever seen are the ones made by Lancer with the steel feed lips; those are SIGNIFICANTLY better than the famous PMAG’s. They are available in several designer colors but the best ones to have are the clear ones (well, semi-clear) where you can see how much ammo you have left. The nice thing about them, they’re no more expensive than a brand new GI magazine. PMAG’s are great, but given enough abuse the feed lips will crack eventually, but that takes a good deal of abuse.

 

[CaptainGyro]

I have two thoughts:

First, 20 gauge. Remington makes a youth-sized 870 in 20 gauge which is quite pleasant to shoot, and can easily be wielded "from the hip", as opposed to shoulder mounting. The price is very reasonable...heck, you could buy three or four and stay within your budget. For a little more they also make a tactical model, with black synthetic furniture and an extended mag

Second, in keeping with the carbine idea, let me suggest the Beretta CX4. It's a sweet little 9mm carbine that's lightweight and very ergonomic. Everyone who tries mine gets off about four rounds before they pause, look up with a big grin, and say, "I want one!" Until recently they've been a little pricey, but you can now find them online for under $600, including an extra thirty-round mag (cough***Botach***cough). 9mm ammo is also much easier to find, and much cheaper, than .30 Carbine.

 

[William R. Moore]

OK, starting from the top:

The current training model with shoulder weapons doesn't use the shoulder pocket as practiced in traditional firearms training. The stance is squared to the target and the butt of the weapon is on the pectoral muscles. The tensed pecs are pretty darn resistant to recoil.

Given the physical attributes of the prospective users, the telescoping stock of the Mforgeries makes a lot of sense. There is a tactical model of the Mini-14 with such a stock. But the stock pretty much makes the Mini an evil black rifle, the standard stock generally gets a pass. That being the case (and a couple of years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of advising this) the AR is probably your best bet.

Back in the late 1980s/early 1990s the FBI did a lot of ballistics testing and discovered that expanding .223 bullets in the 40-50 grain weight range had less barrier penetration than commonly used defensive/duty type handgun ammo. The downside is that if your assailants are large economy size, penetration suffers. The current tendency is to use 55-60 grain expanding bullets to get the penetration and try to avoid misses.

So far as brands, I've had a lot of experience with the S&W and Colt types. S&W has the better warranty by far. Rock River Arms and Stag have excellent reps also, my personal AR is a RRA. I can't personally vouch for other brands. Nor will I, we've had some horrifying experiences with some brands some folks like. Don't fuss with the trigger regardless of which one you buy.

Buy quality mags, Brownells makes very good ones at a reasonable price. I have a soft spot for the 20 round ones. They look less aggessive and allow you to segregate your ammo: expanding bullets in the short mags, military ball in the long mags.

BTW, try to save enough to buy a pair or two of electronic ear muffs. The hearing you save will be your own and you'll still be able to hear intruders.

The Firearm Trust sounds like the way to go. I will note that the lever guns in .357//44 Magnum don't have the bad press of the ARs. Some folks were discussing rifle engagements and most don't go beyond about 6 rounds. If you do go AR, make sure you can articulate why you did so. Low recoil, easy to use, physical limitations, lack of penetration and wide use by LLEA for all the above (but if you use their trainers to testify, make sure they're not hairy chested, chest thumping KTALGSTO types and stick to the script).

Don't know the details of your new legal affliction, but would it still be legal to purchase in an adjacent state and walk it in?

 

[WaltGraham]

Second, in keeping with the carbine idea, let me suggest the Beretta CX4. It's a sweet little 9mm carbine that's lightweight and very ergonomic. Everyone who tries mine gets off about four rounds before they pause, look up with a big grin, and say, "I want one!"

What he said...

 

[Jaywalker]

Between the M1 Carbine and the AR-15 variants you'd have to decide how you want to dress it up - optics, clip-on lights, red dots, and so forth. If you want that, then you want the AR; if you can live without them, the M1 carbine is a better choice.

For home defense, ignore the ammunition price differential, if any. I haven't looked closely lately, but $0.40 per round would have bought me 30 carbine FMJ or 5.56 a few months ago. It's when you step up to 30 carbine hollow point that you start paying a dollar a round, but how often do you need to run them through your carbine, after assuring they work okay?

Since I'm already using Veteran's Admin hearing aids, I haven't compared the muzzle blast of both, side by side, in an enclosed space. I would imagine the lesser amount of powder in the M1 carbine would lead to both lower blast and lower flash, a possibly life-saving advantage in a darkened home. Think "shoot once and then be both deaf and blind..."

Oh, and my wife prefers the carbine - won't shoot the AR at all anymore - mostly it's just too loud, she says.

If you do go with the M1 carbine, go for the real GI-surplus, not the newly-manufactured look-alikes.

 

[Diamondback]

I have two thoughts:

First, 20 gauge. Remington makes a youth-sized 870 in 20 gauge which is quite pleasant to shoot, and can easily be wielded "from the hip", as opposed to shoulder mounting. The price is very reasonable...heck, you could buy three or four and stay within your budget. For a little more they also make a tactical model, with black synthetic furniture and an extended mag

Worth consideration. Depending on other options, may try to pick one up anyway.

Second, in keeping with the carbine idea, let me suggest the Beretta CX4. It's a sweet little 9mm carbine that's lightweight and very ergonomic. Everyone who tries mine gets off about four rounds before they pause, look up with a big grin, and say, "I want one!" Until recently they've been a little pricey, but you can now find them online for under $600, including an extra thirty-round mag (cough***Botach***cough). 9mm ammo is also much easier to find, and much cheaper, than .30 Carbine.

Will consider... hopefully it's better than the 92F ergonomically. (Beretta 92's hurt my hand just to LOOK AT, never mind fire.)

OK, starting from the top:

The current training model with shoulder weapons doesn't use the shoulder pocket as practiced in traditional firearms training. The stance is squared to the target and the butt of the weapon is on the pectoral muscles. The tensed pecs are pretty darn resistant to recoil.

Worth a try, though I don't have a lot of pec to work with and am what used to be called "sunken-chested misanthrope". (Awkward: My gal is almost six inches taller than I am and jokes about me having bigger boobs than she does... though that's as much her "flat" as my "flab". LOL) Tried the various suggestions I got while out doing Pavement Pounding Research below, and all seemed to be viable fits.

Given the physical attributes of the prospective users, the telescoping stock of the Mforgeries makes a lot of sense. There is a tactical model of the Mini-14 with such a stock. But the stock pretty much makes the Mini an evil black rifle, the standard stock generally gets a pass. That being the case (and a couple of years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of advising this) the AR is probably your best bet.

Yeah, I barely had to move the stock out of Storage Position for a good fit, though that does leave a worry about the rels. (Not to cast aspersions, but in my mother's case her torso is like 2 of mine fused together. O.O)

Back in the late 1980s/early 1990s the FBI did a lot of ballistics testing and discovered that expanding .223 bullets in the 40-50 grain weight range had less barrier penetration than commonly used defensive/duty type handgun ammo. The downside is that if your assailants are large economy size, penetration suffers. The current tendency is to use 55-60 grain expanding bullets to get the penetration and try to avoid misses.

Good to know, thanks.

So far as brands, I've had a lot of experience with the S&W and Colt types. S&W has the better warranty by far. Rock River Arms and Stag have excellent reps also, my personal AR is a RRA. I can't personally vouch for other brands. Nor will I, we've had some horrifying experiences with some brands some folks like. Don't fuss with the trigger regardless of which one you buy.

I'm with our old friend Mas here, when he advised leaving duty guns As Pulled From Box unless you can articulate a clear reason and safety improvement for the modification.

Buy quality mags, Brownells makes very good ones at a reasonable price. I have a soft spot for the 20 round ones. They look less aggessive and allow you to segregate your ammo: expanding bullets in the short mags, military ball in the long mags.

Good idea--I'd been thinking 30's downloaded at 25, plastic for HP and metal for ball, but your way makes just as much sense.

BTW, try to save enough to buy a pair or two of electronic ear muffs. The hearing you save will be your own and you'll still be able to hear intruders.

VERY good point, especially with my own naturally sensitive hearing.

The Firearm Trust sounds like the way to go. I will note that the lever guns in .357//44 Magnum don't have the bad press of the ARs. Some folks were discussing rifle engagements and most don't go beyond about 6 rounds. If you do go AR, make sure you can articulate why you did so. Low recoil, easy to use, physical limitations, lack of penetration and wide use by LLEA for all the above (but if you use their trainers to testify, make sure they're not hairy chested, chest thumping KTALGSTO types and stick to the script).

A lot of the staff at another local shop/range where I used to do all my training are off-duty cops including trainers, so networking there is a key part of my defense doctrine. "I was following the advice I was given by Sheriff's Deputies in a Defensive Training environment, and my tools and tactics are based on theirs." The rub with an FT is it's also expensive lawyer time which I have to drag the Old Ones kicking and screaming into approving, and most FT lawyers around here only think "NFA toys", though given that this would be simpler than an NFA trust hopefully that'd get it down to a more reasonable rate.

Don't know the details of your new legal affliction, but would it still be legal to purchase in an adjacent state and walk it in?

WE don't know that with this back-birth of a Mongolian Cluster-F*** either... Here, have a look at the abomination for yourselves, and see if you're not in the same "urged to gouge your eyes out from its sheer STUPIDITY" mood as I was: 594 - 2013-14
And a lot of the myths about it: https://washingtonarmscollectors.org/reference/myths-initiative-594/

Can we just trade Seattle to the Russians in return for them abandoning claim to Ukraine? It'd be no difference in the politics around here...

Supplemental data, house we're looking at a flat 10-20 yard or less range in all directions between berm and neighbors, mobile <10 to treeline, 10 to business wall, maybe 30 to the apartments across the street, about a football field across vacant lot and street to next house north.

Approaches: mobile is on a fenced lot (though chainlink is more "warning" than actual barrier), entry on street side only. House is in one corner of a D-shaped loop, with opther streets extending both direction from the other corner of the D and a footpath that may be drivable along a former road right-of way extending from our corner.

GI Carbines can be problematic to find around here, the option I was looking at was the Kahr with para folding-stock even knowing it's not "perfect". Supposedly MKS is distributing an Inland repro that's so GI-spec they have to mark the parts as "repro", though...

The Day's Research:
Since there's a Sportsman's Warehouse right across the lot from the local Walbarf and I had to do some shopping for Her Peevishness, I decided to stop in and take a look around. AO 1927A-1 Thompson at a tempting price, but despite the attraction of common caliber with my .45 that had to be ruled out. Kel-Tec KSG, love the small size, but unsure of the "back-side effects" in return for the high Target Damage Expectancy--off the table too.

Store manager personally helped me at the counter, they seem to be good about Service Before Sale so far even though I stressed upfront that I was there doing research and there wouldn't be a big sale today.

Bearing in mind there's an additional 10% or so for sales tax on top of this, he recommended five models within budget.
S&W M&P15, clocked in at $1000.
Colt LE6920 was $1170.
Ruger SR556E, $1100.

More appealing on budget were...
Windham WW15 (metal receiver, he pulled pins and we took a look) $830
Remington R15VTR $800, but I'd need to buy and install my own sights

Re sights... SW had Magpul MBUS available at $95/set, while across the street WM had a "Mission First Tactical" (do any of us have experience with these guys?) set for $85. Of course, neither have Lancer mags, so those become an "upgrade add-on" after one or two PMags or GI as "starters".

Speaking of Across the Street: Sig-Sauer M400 SRP with what-the-heck-ever a "SigTac Prismatic Optic" is was $949, while they were $100 lower on LE6920--though the Remmy has a certain appeal for not having the "Black and Scary" finish that makes some pee their adult diapers.

And since the folks at SW were so helpful it'd seem ungrateful to have walked out empty-handed and I've been meaning to pick up a few more spare mags to have on hand and gradually phase my old McCormick Shooting Stars out into Training Use Only, I picked up an 8-round Kimber Kimpro Tac-Mag. Solid choice, or an "OOPS" that should be moved into the Trainers Bin (yes, I WANT trainer mags to fail on me at the range since malfunction clearing is part of realistic training), or do I get to be the guinea pig?

 

[Jaywalker]

Can you not import firearms through an FFL?