[Steve in Utah]

Just wondering why folks are so overly concerned about a certain round going through a bad guy when stats show that only 1 in 5 shots hits the target from only 10' away?

Seems that we're forgetting about the other 4 rounds that missed and who knows where they'll end up.

Please don't get me wrong!, as I admire and respect our under-appreciated LE Officers who do not get the respect they earn and deserve.

While I'm very conscientious as to over and under penetration, I also wonder why City Officials use politics so much (as if) to show they want to protect the innocent when (indeed) no mention is made of the notorious low hit ratios and the other dangerous 4 stray rounds flying uncontrollably?

 

[Charlie Petty]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it seems as if the misses rarely hit anybody or do significant property damage so they don't cause much concern. But the people who need shooting may often be surrounded by cops or "innocent" (yeah, sure) civilians. If one of them is hurt that is a different matter.

Of course the real reason for the generally poor shooting skills of cops is that they do not get to shoot enough or receive good training.

 

[BigMike]

The people who need shooting may often be surrounded

But the people who need shooting may often be surrounded by cops ...

-- CP

Charlie's line reminded me of Tuesday, 11 September 2001.

The classic little old lady with bottle bottom glasses came into the gun store and asked me for ammunition.

Q: What kind of ammunition?
A: For a rifle, a pistol, and a shotgun.
Q: What calibers?
A: I don't know, just sell me a bunch.

I refused, for obvious reasons, and suggested she come back with a list. She did so, about an hour later. She wanted 22LR, 38 Spec, and 12 gauge. After some discussion (we were rationing our sales, concerned about a run on ammo -- which never developed) I sold her some, and was bagging it.

Then, I asked her:
Q: Who are you going to shoot?
A: "Anybody that needs it."

 

[Dean Speir]

Re: Overpenetration Concerns & Forgetting the Missed Rou

Just wondering why folks are so overly concerned about a certain round going through a bad guy when stats show that only 1 in 5 shots hits the target from only 10' away?

A man after my own black heart!

This has been an extremely sore subject with me even since the veil was lifted from my eyes and I came to reluctantly accept that the only "magic bullet" was the one with which I practiced.

Ten or 12 years back, one NYPD MOS, know to some here, and I used to review NYPD's annual Firearms Discharge Report (SOP-9) and laugh at the "between the lines" story of something like:

RMP responded to reports of a 10-30 in progress and intercepted two armed suspects exiting the premises. Shots were fired and a successful arrest was effected. MOS fired 18 X 0, Suspects 24 X 0. No injuries reported.

Not bad… except that 42 shots were exchanged across the hood of the police vehicle (RMP) and not one of them hit their intended target.

Uneasy were the residents of East New York that evening!

Obsessing about penetration without the requisite skill at arms to hit the freakin' target 90% of the time or better, is silly in the extreme.

 

[MikeO]

Don't have the link; just copied/cut the text at the time.

A NY Times article in March 97 based on NYPD report (SOP-9?) w info from 95/96 reported the following:

5 bystanders, 18 police officers, and 18 suspects were hit by NYPD bullets that passed through other people first. NYPD bullets hit a total of 121 people those 2 yrs (21 bystanders, 44 cops, 56 suspects).

That's 41 cases of "over-penetration" in just 2 years in just NYC. About 33% of the people they hit? Seems very strange. Maybe that Blair guy wrote that article?

What a town!? Local cops can't remember that ever happening here.

Wonder if any were "twofers"? A miss that went on to hit and then go through somebody (a suspect/cop/bystander) to then hit somebody else (another suspect/cop/bystander)? Or would that be a "threefer"?

 

[Dean Speir]

Aside from it being purely anecdotal at this point, assuming arguendo that the core of the media report was accurate, it's still meaningless.

What was actually perforated in each event? A torso? (Not likely, given NYPD's appalling "hit potential" ratio!) A peripheral potion of the body such as a calf or a bicep?

It means nothing, Mike, as there is nothing to properly evaluate.

 

[MikeO]

Nada?

I wouldn't go that far. You can apply some critical thinking and get something out of it, or think too critically and get nada.

You could get the meaning you should always be careful about what is behind your target no matter what load you use because bullets do pass through people to hit other people more often than some thought they did for a variety of reasons.

It also means "overpenetration" can be as ambiguous as "stopping power", and you can have just as much fun, or waste just as much time and be mislead as easily, w the definitions and stats. Maybe some want OSPT (One Shot Pass Through) ratings to go w their OSS (One Shot Stop) ratings? Considering how different every shooter, shootee, and shooting can be, would be silly to choose ammo based on either one IMO.

 

[Dean Speir]

[sigh]

To some it's known as "tergiversatory logomachia," but we know it as "Mike-Speak."

 

[Richard Jefferies]

Dean wrote:

[sigh]

To some it's known as " tergiversatory logomachia ," but we know it as "Mike-Speak."

ROTLMAOPIMP!!!!

 

[MikeO]

Good one!

Logomachia I was familiar with, tergiversatory I had to look up...

Not good, but not as bad as I thought.

In Detroit we called it shuckin' n jivin'... ya know, trying to sing and dance your way outta trouble... hey, one of my favorite songs is "Babelogue" by Patti Smith.

Those numbers would mean more if we had more details, but I still don't think they are meaningless as is.

36 of the 41 people were hit by FMJs, 5 with JHPs. Still need to know how many of each were fired, where they hit, etc, before we jump to any conclusions about those numbers too...

Wasn't that around the time NYPD first announced a general approval of JHPs? Maybe they were massaging the numbers to make FMJ look bad and JHPs look better in that way?

Would be interesting to look at earlier/later reports, see if the switch to a JHP that does 12 inches in bare gel from a FMJ that does 24 inches or a .38 SWC that does 30 inches has really made any difference in that regard ("overpenetration" liability).

Could still end up w as many/more pass through hits w JHPs if you had more peripheral/limb hits... and there are still all the misses. NYPD missed more in gunfights in 2000 w mostly 9s and JHPs (9% hits) than they did in 1990 w mostly .38s and SWCs (19% hits)... not that it means anything.