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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen,
We have one of the recently imported 1911’s from the Philippines that is dealing us fits. When we got the pistol the trigger was extremely heavy and gritty. We had to debur the magazine well in order to get a good magazine into the gun.

We stoned the hammer and sear and the trigger pull was lightened up but then the hammer started following. We replaced all of the fire control parts, hammer, sear and disconnector and all of the springs. We redid the trigger job and still had the same problem, the hammer following.

We scratched our heads and then started taking measurements and found that the pin holes for the sear and hammer were oversized by about .005” each hole, for a tolerance of .010”. We also think that the holes are not in the proper orientation and are not square with the frame.

Is there any way to salvage this pistol?

Thanks,
DaninDayton
ilurkalot
 

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If the holes in the frame are off, crooked, or mis-located, it's toast.
Mis-located holes has always been a major problem with cheap frames going back to the days of the early cast frame 1911's made by companies like Crown City, Vega, and the early Essex.
 

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Well sir, I can't speak to the technical answers to your problems. DFaris seems to have covered that.

You didn't mention the specific brand, but about 2 years ago there was a Charles Daley 1911 (made in the Phillipines, I believe) at my favorite gun shop. It looked like it had most of the bells and whistles on it, and the price was very attractive.

I asked to see the gun, and during the examination, I turned it sideways...and the slide stop fell out! :shock:

That's all I needed to see.
 

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If the pin-holes are located approximately, they can have bushing installed. This will not only allow for proper tolerances, but can also, by drilling off-center slightly, allow for minimal relocation of the holes, themselves. Otherwise, you have just purchased an expensive paper-weight.
 

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Back in the days of the strange hole locations I got pretty adept at cutting crooked sears or hammer hooks to different heights.

At one time you could get oversize sear and hammer pins or they are easily made on a lathe.

My guess is that whoever did the "stoning" may not have much experience with 1911 triggers and you may need that rather than more parts.

I have woked on several Armscor guns with no problem and I own one of the Daly guns that is just peachy. Unfortunately I haven't seen any of recent vintage and things may have changed.
 

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Oversize holes may only be part of the problem. Are the holes in the right place? The correct distance apart? The correct holes are different sizes on either side of the frame due to the pins being very slightly tapered. If the holes are located correctly but oversize, Charlies suggestion of oversize pins will work well.

If not, and you're bound and determined to save this frame, I'd suggest plugging the holes. This would involve shrink fitting plugs into the holes. You can then take measurements from a frame known to be good and very carefully redrill the holes the correct sizes in the correct places using a milling machine as a drill press. Given the expense, it'd probably be cheaper and easier to scrap the frame. I wonder what happened to the special cutters I had to correct some of the frames dfariswheel mentioned?

The comment about "stoning the hammer & sear" brought to mind a Gun Test issue with that caption under a picture of a pistol being assaulted by a 5 pound rock. I learned to cheat: I cut hammer hooks on a vertical mill. The angles are correct, the height exact and cleaning up tool marks took little time.

Charlie, when you were woking the Armscor guns, was it sweet & sour or something else? :mrgreen:
 

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I cringe every time I hear "stone" and "trigger" used in the same sentence.

My reference to "crooked" sears came from holes in strange places or not drilled straight through.

Isn't using a mill the worst possible kind of cheating? We did it freehand with a mill bastard file... :ek:

I really didn't work on many, but no "sour" experiences if that's what you meant.
 

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William R. Moore said:
. . . The comment about "stoning the hammer & sear" brought to mind a Gun Test issue with that caption under a picture of a pistol being assaulted by a 5 pound rock.
I think I remember that issue - IIRC, the gun in question was the LES Rogak pistol, a Steyr GB ripoff made - poorly! - in Morton Grove, IL. As I recall, the accompanying text said that when (not if!) the gun jammed, you could take out the magazine and use THAT as a weapon - the feed lips were that sharp.

IrishCop said:
. . . You didn't mention the specific brand, but about 2 years ago there was a Charles Daley 1911 (made in the Phillipines, I believe) at my favorite gun shop. It looked like it had most of the bells and whistles on it, and the price was very attractive.

I asked to see the gun, and during the examination, I turned it sideways...and the slide stop fell out! :shock:

That's all I needed to see.
Sounds like it was as bad as some of the early Para-Ordnance pistols I looked at. (I understand they're a lot better now.)
 

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DaninDayton said:
Gentlemen,
We have one of the recently imported 1911's from the Philippines that is dealing us fits. When we got the pistol the trigger was extremely heavy and gritty. We had to debur the magazine well in order to get a good magazine into the gun.

We stoned the hammer and sear and the trigger pull was lightened up but then the hammer started following. We replaced all of the fire control parts, hammer, sear and disconnector and all of the springs. We redid the trigger job and still had the same problem, the hammer following.

We scratched our heads and then started taking measurements and found that the pin holes for the sear and hammer were oversized by about .005" each hole, for a tolerance of .010". We also think that the holes are not in the proper orientation and are not square with the frame.

Is there any way to salvage this pistol?

Thanks,
DaninDayton
ilurkalot
First mistake was thinking that stoning the Hammer and sear would alleviate the problem. What you need is another trigger. Don't do anything but fit the trigger into the frame and you'll have to replace the hammer and sear. You probably stoned the sear-hooks on the hammer too much, should be .018 deepand at 90 degrees.. What's happening is that the sear is slipping off the hooks.
 

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Retmsgt. said:
What you need is another trigger. Don't do anything but fit the trigger into the frame and you'll have to replace the hammer and sear.
I'm not following this at all, Sarge. :?
 

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Snake, hammerfall is a sign the notch or hooks on the hammer were stoned too far and the sear is slipping off causing the hammer to follow. The OP stated that he had to;"We stoned the hammer and sear and the trigger pull was lightened up but then the hammer started following. We replaced all of the fire control parts, hammer, sear and disconnector and all of the springs. We redid the trigger job and still had the same problem, the hammer following."

I read that to say they stoned the hammer/sear again. I guess I should/could have explained better. All they had to do was fit the new trigger and replace the other parts. Of Course, if they did anything to the disconnector, like take it below 1.290, that will cause hammerfollow. My assumption is that they probably took the stoning too far both times, a common occurance.
 

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IF the slide stop fell out, was it massively undersized, missing the plunger, or was the frame out of spec. My guess would be it had been stripped and someone never got it back in right.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
We replaced all of the fire control parts with, new, name brand ones. This gave us a long creepy trigger at about 8 lbs. But no following. We did some light stoning, got the trigger pull down to 6 lbs. with 100% functioning and left the damn thing alone.

Conclusion: tolerance stack in the parts. Gremlins?

Danindayton
ilurkalot
 
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