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Discussion Starter #1
Sad but this was a foreseeable outcome to the hate and anti-cop rhetoric being spewed from the lips of our "leaders". Funny, haven't heard much about this on the news.:mad:
Rest easy my brothers, God's speed and protection on your families.
Killings of 2 New York officers trigger backlash
 

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What's funny (NOT) is all the statements from the usual suspects rapidly backwatering from their statements of just a couple of days ago about the Evil cops, and the "What do we want" chant in New York.

To ay you can't find a cop hater in sight.

Meanwhile on all the social media sites the at least honest of the usual suspects are cheering the killings and asking for more.

In a more perfect (or at least just world) the police would issue a statement admitting that they're all racists, and saying that to make up for it they'll stop patrolling in black neighborhoods and just stay out so they won't inflict their racists selves on the 'hood.
 

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You have my strongest condolences. It has been a horrid year for Police, from the wacko in Pennsylvania to the coffee shop attack some months ago through to today.

I am surprised at how rough things have become in that city, so quickly.

That Police Officers did the "Klingon Back Turn" on Mayor DeBlasio is a mind blower.

 

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This is the goal of the "Martyrdom by Cop" in Ferguson MO. Gee doesn't every, "little african-american child" of 18 years and 282 lbs, go into a store with active security cameras, carefully rough up the clerk to make it a felony on camera, walk out into the street, not on the sidewalk, to avoid attention, and then spend several minutes literally throwing evidence into a Police Officer's face and them forcing the officer into a position where he had to shoot?
So, now we have liberals in the streets screaming that mobs are better than the rule of law, just like we had in Jacksonville, FL where the mobs "failed to get justice for Travon Martin," a dead dope fiend.
Two dead officers in NYC, and one dead white man in St. Louis, but don't worry, the Mayor declared it had nothing to do with the Michael Brown shooting, minority children routinely kill random white's by beating them to death with hammers. It's just a minor sport in St. Louis...
Geoff
Who is disgusted and wishes he had the money to back a "Dead doper" law in FL.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
We live in a sad America where the good folks, whom I proudly served for my career, are afraid to speak up for fear of being labeled "racist". We have elected leaders who have little or no "roots" in our heritage and do not respect the foundation of law our forefathers laid and paid with their lives to protect and provide.
This saddens me deeply. I'm angered by the men who drive the wedge of race deep into society with their hatred only to keep themselves in the spotlight and use the title "Reverend" invoking some authority from God.
What irritates me further is that the leadership of NYPD and the Mayor have asked their officers to "limit" their opinions to "grief and sadness" over the two murders of their own. So we somehow loose the 1st amendment right when we don our uniform? I was sworn to protect your right to be wrong and now they ask us to surrender our own right to speak out? What has happened to this country? Sad times indeed...
 

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Ratfink2u;ALL,

R.I.P. my departed brothers from NYPD.

To Ratfink: WELL SAID.

yours, sw
 

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For Ferguson, I'm on the side of the police. For New York, I'm on the side of the protesters.

In Ferguson they were never interested in the truth, and it all went to hell from the get go.

In New York its a very different story. Now I don't think for a second that the cops intended to do any real harm to that man. But the fact is, they got physical and he died. The worst part is, the man was pulse-less and apenic for 7 minutes before CPR was started. Every cop in New York is trained in CPR, first aid and many are EMT certified. He was in police custody so at the very least there should have been a negligent homicide indictment. All I know is, if I tackled someone and he ended up dying, I'd be sitting in jail; and we all know that's true.

Still, even though it happened, I don't think all cops are bad, and I don't think New York cops are bad. One cop did something he shouldn't have done, and someone died as a result. It's questionable whether what he did was the direct cause or an indirect cause. But according to the law, indirect is still a homocide.

So the protesters in New York have a legitimate beef. I don't care that the guy was black, what I see is a cop getting away with something an ordinary citizen wouldn't get away with, and this one stinks of corruption.

As for Al Sharpton and the race baiters...They just took it too far, simple as that.

As for this POS who murdered these two officers; I hope there's a special place in hell for the SOB. That didn't solve anything, it just made things significantly worse.

When cops get it right, and they do that 99.99% of the time, they needed to be backed 100%. When they get it wrong, they need to be held accountable to the same level as anyone else. Otherwise you're saying cops are a higher level of citizen and that's a really slippery slope.
 

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Kevin Gibson,

Inasmuch as neither of us heard/saw/had access to the evidence presented to the grand jury in NYC, I have to accept their findings & fully support their NO TRUE BILL finding.
(Having worked with USACIDC in NY, I can tell you that you can indict "a ham sandwich" there. NY law is "front-loaded" for the prosecution's benefit. = There was OBVIOUSLY NO evidence of GUILT/CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE for the grand jury to find.)

yours, sw
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Agreed sw, the bottom line to ALL of these sad incidents was "quit resisting" and surrender to the authority the officers were charged with. Whether the officer were right or wrong in the arrest, you DONT resist! You fight in court, not on the street. We have a legal process that can be used to protest the arrest.
And I agree, if the GJ didn't find probable cause to indict the officers, then we accept their findings. That's the system we have and are sworn to defend. I didn't like O.J. getting off for murder but the system, however weak, set him free and I have to accept that.
Protest all you want until your rights infringe upon another's, then your rights end right there.
Peaceful protest are always acceptable and are needed to make needed changes (L.A.P.D.as an example). Killing someone, outside of the a court mandated sentence or self-defense, is murder. Period. IMVHO
 

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Kevin Gibson,

Inasmuch as neither of us heard/saw/had access to the evidence presented to the grand jury in NYC, I have to accept their findings & fully support their NO TRUE BILL finding.
(Having worked with USACIDC in NY, I can tell you that you can indict "a ham sandwich" there. NY law is "front-loaded" for the prosecution's benefit. = There was OBVIOUSLY NO evidence of GUILT/CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE for the grand jury to find.)

yours, sw
I just don't buy that. The choke hold is clearly seen, now whether that really contributed to his death, that's a tough one to prove one way or the other. But he coded AFTER he was in custody, and no one started CPR for 7 minutes. If I did that when I was a paramedic, I'd be indicted.

Yeah you can indict a ham sandwich. On this particular case, he should have been indicted. Let a jury ferret it all out. But to not indict when the ME rules it a homicide, the choke hold is clearly seen, and the 7 minutes without CPR, that speaks of corruption in the DA's office to me.

If there was evidence that clearly exonerates the cop in question, that should then be made public. But from where I'm standing ( and again, I don't give a rat-azz about the color/race issue), the DA could have easily gotten an indictment had they even tried.

So I think people have a right to be pushed out of shape over this one. I don't think it's as bad as they make it out to be, and I don't see this as a race issue, the guy just happened to be black. But had they not used physical force on the man, he'd be alive today.
 

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And I agree, if the GJ didn't find probable cause to indict the officers, then we accept their findings. That's the system we have and are sworn to defend.
No you don't, not if you feel the system is failing. Now you don't burn down your own freaking town, but protest is the right thing to do and the people have a right to be upset. They don't have a right to commit murder either. But in America we have the right to protest and we need to exercise that right when things go awry. WE are in charge of this government, this is OUR country and we just don't roll over and say, "oh well."
 

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As one who supports the police I find myself having to say this regarding Garner:

1.) He should not have resisted. He should have gone with the police, they'd issue him a summons and probably he'd be out in 30 minutes. Some responsibility must fall on his shoulders.
How much?

2.) He ought not be dead. Was it a choke hold? I hear pundits claiming both. You know what?
I don't really care.
I saw the video -- a cop had his arm around Garner's throat.
Probably most pertinent; the autopsy report indicated the coroner said his throat (windpipe, AKA trachea) had been "flattened." Was he in respiratory distress?
He was claiming he couldn't breath. Yet his trachea was flat. Some have claimed that you can't talk if you're being choked.
I fall back on the coroner's report. Sorry; his trachea was flat.

Kevin Gibson said:
But he coded AFTER he was in custody, and no one started CPR for 7 minutes.
THAT is not right. CPR should start ASAP.

I agree it's not a race issue. I also do not believe it rises to the level of murder. But it does (I think) rise to a negligent homicide of some sort.

To those here who are, or who have served served as police ....I'm sorry but that's how I see it. Now in the Ferguson case I support the police officer; that was self defense. The two police officers who were assassinated this saturday in New York City, that is a horrific event. The shooter saved the taxpayer's some $$$ there by "offing" himself...good riddance, with condolences to his family.

I have a lot of respect for police officers. They do a tough job requiring life or death decisions made in seconds. For the large part they get it right, thank God.
And to those who "serve and protect:" THANK YOU.
 

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Kevin Gibson,

Fyi, under NY state law, evidence presented to a grand jury may NOT be released to ANYBODY but the prosecutor or a judge of competent jurisdiction. Further prosecutors & judges are FORBIDDEN to release any information that the receive from a grand jury, EXCEPT in a trial.

As there was NO true bill, we will never see what the grand jury saw/heard.

ALL that we will likely EVER have is the comments of a woman, who was "allegedly" a grand juror. = She said that NONE of the grand jury members, after seeing what evidence was presented believed to their body that the police officers were criminally culpable under law & that the members believed that the death of Mr. Garner was regrettable but NOT a criminal act.

IF Garner had not resisted arrest & peacefully gone with the officers, he would likely be alive, as I write these lines.

While I support the demonstrators RIGHT of FREE SPEECH & ASSEMBLY, I do NOT support RIOTING, ASSAULTS on civilians/LEOs, RAPES, LOOTING and/or HOMICIDE.

Frankly, I think those criminals that engage in those lawless activities should be SHOT to prevent those crimes, as soon as they are attempted.

yours, sw
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Amen sw....Amen
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'll hold my opinion until I hear the actual tape....sounds like the media chumming the water otherwise.
 

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Regarding Garners "resisting"... He pushed a cops hand away, that was the sum total of his resistance. The cop who applied the choke hold was flanking him at that very moment with the intention of a takedown. All of this for selling cigarettes on the sidewalk. Why does anyone give a rats ass about selling loose cigarettes?

As for the choke hold, as a martial artist and former paramedic, here's what I "know" about choke holds.

To properly do a choke hold, you have to get your arm all the way around the neck. You cradle the wind pipe in the crook of your elbow, then squeeze cutting off blood circulation at the carotids to the brain, in around 30 seconds they'll go unconscious.

You do NOT put your forearm across the trachea, when that happens you can either crush the wind pipe right there, or you can cause bruising. If the latter, they tend to be found dead in their jail cell about 3-5 hours later when the swelling cuts off their air supply. THIS is why choke holds are verboten in 99% of all law enforcement agencies.

The incident pushed by the cops was BAD
How they handled the verbal portion was done poorly (they had just heard he broke up the fight they were responding to, give the guy a break, he did their job for them).
The decision to arrest for something as petty as selling loose cigarettes, BAD call (unfortunately it may not have been the cops call on that one.)
The takedown was botched.
Ignoring his pleas of "I can't breathe", criminally negligent (at that point he was in their custody).

All of this is quite easy to see.

If the DA got a no indictment, it's because the DA went in there with the full intention of getting no indictment. The DA's office was more concerned about covering the city's arse, than doing their job.

Again, I don't care about the racial issues. What I do care about is one class of citizen being allowed to kill someone and not have to answer for it in court.
 

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I tend to agree with KG on all counts.

The problem is that folks from the "Pro-Palestinian activists" (Read, Islamonutters) to "A.N.S.W.E.R." (Read: The Communist Party) are now involved and the politicians jumping in on this are unwittingly (or wittingly) allying themselves with these groups, and those groups do not need well.

"A.N.S.W.E.R." AKA the Communists, were behind Code Pink (Which is strangely silent about ISIS murdering people in Iraq right now) and it seems this is the next cause they are glomming onto, probably with coordination at top levels in the media.

This is all going into a very bad place. The silent majority is probably waking up, I hope they do. This has the potential to get a lot worse.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Agreed with most of that but....
When you are told to "put your hands behind your back" by an officer, it's a really good indication that your next move will dictate the officers next move. And ANYTHING other than compliance is resistance...Clearly seen is the video is his ACTIVE resistance to being taken into legal custody and delaying peace officers in the performance of their duties.
Garner was extremely large and outweighed both initial contact/arrest officers.

The hold used was totally inappropriate and dangerous, obviously. Departments in CA always emphasize NEVER use your forearm across the throat but rather the bend in the elbow/forearm as a "nest" for the throat and exert pressure on the Vagus nerve using a squeezing pressure between the bicep and wrist on both sides of the subjects neck.
Again, ALL opinions at this point are Monday armchair quarterbacks at best.
...from my little corner of the world, RF
 
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