Joined
·
4,081 Posts
Just heard on the radio a few minutes ago that the recent civilian deaths in Iraq were guys from Blackwater Security Consulting. I checked online and found the following…
Boston.com
CNN
Boston.com
CNN
Recent deaths in Iraq…
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
[email protected]#$%ing believable. They hung them from a bridge. CIVILIANS!!!
Reminds me of many scenes from Black Hawk Down.
Sometimes I really wish we weren't a moral people. We could give these bastards what they really deserve. Instead, we'll just have to wait and let God handle it.
"I will execute great vengeance on them them with wrathful rebukes; and they will know that I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon them."
Reminds me of many scenes from Black Hawk Down.
Sometimes I really wish we weren't a moral people. We could give these bastards what they really deserve. Instead, we'll just have to wait and let God handle it.
"I will execute great vengeance on them them with wrathful rebukes; and they will know that I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon them."
Joined
·
10,807 Posts
I've been arguing with a friend through e-mail on things like this. I've openly stated we need to change the way we operate. When faced with this, we need to retaliate immediately and make the price so high they will fear the results of another raid. We lost 19 in Mog and killed a 1,000. We lost 10 today and should make it a city. Do as the Germans did in WWII on one town, bring up tanks and artillery and level it - innocent or guilty, it makes no difference. Let Allah sort them out.
We are going to be at war with the Muslims for 100 years at a minimum. Make damned sure they pay dearly.
We are going to be at war with the Muslims for 100 years at a minimum. Make damned sure they pay dearly.
To the world, if they kill 10 of our civilians, they are just defending their homeland.
If WE kill 10 of THEIR civilians, well, Bush might as well be indicted for war crimes!
Hell, this is true of some of our own CITIZENS!!!! SOME OF OUR OWN would rather see ten Americans killed than see 10 Iraqi civilians killed.
If WE kill 10 of THEIR civilians, well, Bush might as well be indicted for war crimes!
Hell, this is true of some of our own CITIZENS!!!! SOME OF OUR OWN would rather see ten Americans killed than see 10 Iraqi civilians killed.
Joined
·
203 Posts
I hate to rain on anybody's parade, but if those guys were a security detail what the hell were they doing taking a predictable route thru a town known for being sympathetic to Saddam Hussein?
Reports this morning indicate the shopkeepers along the route knew in advance something was about to happen.
Isn't one of the first rules of avoiding being a target to not be predictable? Even Hussein knew that much.
I'm not saying the Blackwater folks deserved what they got, but they did screw up. You're not supposed to do that in war.
Reports this morning indicate the shopkeepers along the route knew in advance something was about to happen.
Isn't one of the first rules of avoiding being a target to not be predictable? Even Hussein knew that much.
I'm not saying the Blackwater folks deserved what they got, but they did screw up. You're not supposed to do that in war.
But, it's not a war... We are now "nation building," helping the peace loving, decent peoples of Iraq. You think this is bad, wait until we leave.
If you want an interesting account of what its like to be a security contractor, I point you here:
http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetail ... _id=366991
If you want an interesting account of what its like to be a security contractor, I point you here:
http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetail ... _id=366991
Joined
·
203 Posts
Powerful piece.
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
That's a good read, Jules. If I'm not mistaken, McCann runs an executive counter-terror training facility near here called the Crucible. I've also heard he does some writing under another name. Looks like he does his share of field work...
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
I just heard Kimmitt state that the Marines will Occupy, then Pacify foollja. Guess the Muslim community can't fault us for using one of their own strategies... Old BlackJack Pershing may have had the best idea...
The Sunnis in Fallujah had better hope the marines stay a real long time. Because the minute we leave, the Shi'a that have had their necks under the Sunni heel these past few decades will need more than one bridge to string all the bodies from. But who will care?
Us? Mogadishu taught Americans that Africa was a lost cause, so when genocide occurs there now we just shrug and change to another news channel. We tried to help the people of Somalia and all we got was 19 dead GI's and hundreds, if not thousands, of dead Somalis.
Now the same thing is happening in Iraq. We come to feed their children and give them clean water. In response, they kill our men and desecrate their corpses. The lesson once again is that muslims waging tribal war just want to be left alone to kill each other. Any attempt to interfere just means both sides gang up on the peacemaker. It's just like a LEO responding to a domestic quarrel, but with RPGs.
Us? Mogadishu taught Americans that Africa was a lost cause, so when genocide occurs there now we just shrug and change to another news channel. We tried to help the people of Somalia and all we got was 19 dead GI's and hundreds, if not thousands, of dead Somalis.
Now the same thing is happening in Iraq. We come to feed their children and give them clean water. In response, they kill our men and desecrate their corpses. The lesson once again is that muslims waging tribal war just want to be left alone to kill each other. Any attempt to interfere just means both sides gang up on the peacemaker. It's just like a LEO responding to a domestic quarrel, but with RPGs.
Joined
·
1,298 Posts
Well said, Travis.
It's time for the US to stop playing "Globocop." (May the real Globocop's soul rest in peace.)
It's time for the US to stop playing "Globocop." (May the real Globocop's soul rest in peace.)
Please understand that I am not suggesting that we should not have invaded Iraq again. Just the opposite. Deposing Hussein needed doing and we did it.
The point of the US invasion, as I see it, was to depose a hostile Arab dictator who we believed at the time had WMDs and was sponsoring and supporting terrorism. The risk that he would supply a terror group with WMDs was a credible threat. The liberation of the Iraqi people is a nice side benny but our strategic goal was to topple Hussein and send a message to the other Arab "leaders" that their butts were personally on the line if they chose to pick a fight with us.
Once we accomplished that we had an obligation to try to make things better. It's just good sense. We have made the attempt, spending tens of billions. We are now attempting to give them some time to put together a representative government. If they fail it is not out fault.
Until the average Iraqi sees their Iraqi identity as more important than their clan or tribal identity they are unlikely to merge into a viable national identity. That's tribalism at work and it is at the heart of the cultures that comprise the Middle East and Central Asia. Mohammed wasn't able to overcome it and we won't either.
The result is the same constant low-level feuding and warfare that was the rule before a dictator was strong enough to direct all the violence to his own ends. See Afghanistan for an example.
The point of the US invasion, as I see it, was to depose a hostile Arab dictator who we believed at the time had WMDs and was sponsoring and supporting terrorism. The risk that he would supply a terror group with WMDs was a credible threat. The liberation of the Iraqi people is a nice side benny but our strategic goal was to topple Hussein and send a message to the other Arab "leaders" that their butts were personally on the line if they chose to pick a fight with us.
Once we accomplished that we had an obligation to try to make things better. It's just good sense. We have made the attempt, spending tens of billions. We are now attempting to give them some time to put together a representative government. If they fail it is not out fault.
Until the average Iraqi sees their Iraqi identity as more important than their clan or tribal identity they are unlikely to merge into a viable national identity. That's tribalism at work and it is at the heart of the cultures that comprise the Middle East and Central Asia. Mohammed wasn't able to overcome it and we won't either.
The result is the same constant low-level feuding and warfare that was the rule before a dictator was strong enough to direct all the violence to his own ends. See Afghanistan for an example.
Joined
·
4,081 Posts
Good point. It's now where it should be.
TBeck: "Until the average Iraqi sees their Iraqi identity as more important than their clan or tribal identity they are unlikely to merge into a viable national identity. That's tribalism at work and it is at the heart of the cultures that comprise the Middle East and Central Asia. Mohammed wasn't able to overcome it and we won't either."
Too true. But, clan and tribe identity isn't, never has been, limited to the mid-east (and I know you didn't mean that). The inability to elevate one's loyalty to a higher authority has been a problem throughout history. It has been attributed to the downfall of the Scotland of Old. Don't forget we have fingers wagging at us right now, because we won't subjugate our national objectives and loyalty to the World Order. It is different only in the level of politics, the level of loyalty. I love Georgia and don't want it to be like Alabama, for example. I damn sure don't want the US to be anything like Europe ... GAG!
So ... I have a lot of respect for the principle of clan and tribal loyalty. Take it to a higher political level and it is a respected position (state or nation, for example). At the very local level, it is "tribalism" and dispespected. We are imposing the same thing (and so did Hussein) on these people that the UN would impose on us. I don't equate the objectives, methods or the motives of Hussein's regime vs ours, but I try to not do to others, that which I would not tolerate. Don't ask me to discard my loyalties, just to replace them with others defined by you. I may not be able to understand the benefits of the new loyalties, and the old ones are ingrained. I am simply not motivated to that end for a host of possible reasons.
Here is the problem: We should get tough or get out. We won't get tough ... 'won't happen ... too much world and US press on site and too much political sensitivity to it. We won't get out ... because we don't know how, politically.
Any one read The Haj by Leon Uris? Tribal Genocide in the mid east will never end. JMHO
Too true. But, clan and tribe identity isn't, never has been, limited to the mid-east (and I know you didn't mean that). The inability to elevate one's loyalty to a higher authority has been a problem throughout history. It has been attributed to the downfall of the Scotland of Old. Don't forget we have fingers wagging at us right now, because we won't subjugate our national objectives and loyalty to the World Order. It is different only in the level of politics, the level of loyalty. I love Georgia and don't want it to be like Alabama, for example. I damn sure don't want the US to be anything like Europe ... GAG!
So ... I have a lot of respect for the principle of clan and tribal loyalty. Take it to a higher political level and it is a respected position (state or nation, for example). At the very local level, it is "tribalism" and dispespected. We are imposing the same thing (and so did Hussein) on these people that the UN would impose on us. I don't equate the objectives, methods or the motives of Hussein's regime vs ours, but I try to not do to others, that which I would not tolerate. Don't ask me to discard my loyalties, just to replace them with others defined by you. I may not be able to understand the benefits of the new loyalties, and the old ones are ingrained. I am simply not motivated to that end for a host of possible reasons.
Here is the problem: We should get tough or get out. We won't get tough ... 'won't happen ... too much world and US press on site and too much political sensitivity to it. We won't get out ... because we don't know how, politically.
Any one read The Haj by Leon Uris? Tribal Genocide in the mid east will never end. JMHO
Joined
·
3,940 Posts
I'm sitting here nursing a Bass and watching Otis lick his ba!!s in my recliner. Watching the tube - things are getting done half a planet away that make the neighborhood safer for my grandkids. It's a little surreal, but I ain't forgot to be grateful...
Lottsa ways and reasons the best can be taken down by the worst.
Being a former SEAL, Ranger, or Green Beret doesn't necessarily mean you know how to run security details or drive your way out of trouble; that is specialized training even they may have not had, or not had enough of. And even if they had, the lions may simply have been overwhelmed by too many jackals.
Their local intel, or their access to it, may not be as clear as our hindsight. Don't know enough about their route, or alternate routes to know if that made any significant difference. May be limited in how unpredictable they can be by forces not under their control...
May not have made any "mistakes" and just had bad luck, or may have known their situation was screwed up, not much they could do about it, did the best they could with what they had, and soldiered on anyway.
Those who dare don't always win.
"Names in my ears, Of all the lost adventurers my peers, -
How such a one was strong, and such was bold,
And such was fortunate, yet each of old
Lost, lost! one moment knelled the woe of years."
Being a former SEAL, Ranger, or Green Beret doesn't necessarily mean you know how to run security details or drive your way out of trouble; that is specialized training even they may have not had, or not had enough of. And even if they had, the lions may simply have been overwhelmed by too many jackals.
Their local intel, or their access to it, may not be as clear as our hindsight. Don't know enough about their route, or alternate routes to know if that made any significant difference. May be limited in how unpredictable they can be by forces not under their control...
May not have made any "mistakes" and just had bad luck, or may have known their situation was screwed up, not much they could do about it, did the best they could with what they had, and soldiered on anyway.
Those who dare don't always win.
"Names in my ears, Of all the lost adventurers my peers, -
How such a one was strong, and such was bold,
And such was fortunate, yet each of old
Lost, lost! one moment knelled the woe of years."
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
