[IrishCop]

I am neither a Morgue Monster or a Jello Junkie. I put myself firmly in the "it's WHERE you shoot'em, not WHAT you shoot'em with" camp. I am rapidly approaching 6 decades on this earth, so I remember when THE combat/self defense round for the .357 were the 125 grain loadings from Federal/Winchester/Remington.

The reports of the effectiveness of these loadings were numerous and probably just a little...exaggerated. BUT, I do think that these loads are probably the best anti-personnel rounds for the .357.

Since I just picked up a Model 19 to go with my Model 27, I went shopping for some of these "loads of my youth". I quickly found out that, around here anyway, not exactly common stock. Internet, here I come.

I found a box of the Remington, saw the price, called my local Volunteer Fire Department to come administer CPR, and ordered a box.

Beautiful, deadly looking little missiles...half jacketed, lots of exposed lead at the tip with an impressive hollow point. Just like I remembered them. Remington says they're loaded to 1450 FPS...I don't know. Don't have a chronograph. But they produce a nice sharp recoil in my M-19, are incredibly loud, and shoot one hole groups at my 25 foot makeshift range at the house.

I guess the point of this rambling is, have I bought into a bunch of hype all of these years? It seems to me that the typical 158 grain loads would be way over-penetrative and produce even MORE recoil. I can't see any of the newer hollow point designs expanding any more effectively than these old school rounds, but a ballistician I ain't. Tell me what you think.

 

[DArbeit]

I wish I still had my Model 19. I only have a 6" Python currently.

I agree with your thinking regarding 'anti-personnel' use of the .357 Magnum.
Light hollow points would tend to be more devastating.

I have my own philosophy on .357s. I use +P .38 Spl. loads for defense and load/buy 158 gr. soft points for my Magnum rounds. The .38s should work fine for defense while the Mag rounds utilise its special properties for best range/penetration. I should state that I have no practical experience and am operating on theory alone.

I do agree with you that placement is what counts. 28 years in EMS backs that up. I have 3 score and 2 years on this earth and don't think you have fallen for any 'hype'. I think you are right on for your purposes.

 

[Skeptic49]

Supposedly, though I no longer have the references, SIG spent a small fortune developing the 357 SIG to duplicate the ballistics of the .357 Magnum, as it was considered the best round for a pistol.

I like the Mid-priced versions of 125 gr .357s when I can find them, I usually end up with the WWB .38Special +Ps. I'm not worried about my Ruger Security Six 4" HB wearing excessively.

Geoff
Who needs to get out the .44 Magnum for a little exercise.

 

[William R. Moore]

We were issued Federal's version of that load. After seeing what oodles of it did to our 681s, I decided Remington's mid-range version of that load was what would be burned in my personal boomers.

Sadly, that load isn't available any longer (but the Golden Saber version is) from the factory. My handloaded version using Remington's slug at a measured 1250 was sufficiently impressive in tissue simulant that I don't feel the missing 200 fs is worth the bother/expense/wear.

I have hearing loss in my right ear, and tinnitus, from being within 10-12 feet of a team member when he cranked off one of the Federal flame throwers when I didn't have ear protection.

 

[Charlie Petty]

The mid range loads for .357, .41 and .44 magnums were such a good idea nobody bought them. So strong is the perception that velocity alone will solve any problem.

I don't know that SIG spent all that much on the cartridge and always thought that somebody in Exeter wanted their name on something.

I messed with it a lot when it came out and wrote that it came close, but did not duplicate the 125 gr. .357 load. I got a long letter from SIG complete with ballistic tables showing that it did...AT 100 YD.

Some time later I was in a low/no light class and a guy from ICE had one. When he touched off the first round more than a few guys on the line stopped shooting to see what had blown up..

I think Irish mentioned that his outfit quit using it because of ammo cost.

 

[IrishCop]

Yeah, Charlie. We stopped using the SIG strictly because of cost issues. Went to .40 S&W in the Glock Gen 4's. They even issued me one, despite the fact I was on the injured/reserve list. Hadn't shot it yet though. Did y'all know Glocks are made of plastic? Yuck!

I know the full blown 125 grainers are extremely hard on K and I suppose even L frame guns. I will reserve the use of mine strictly to those "serious social occasions" Jeff Cooper spoke about. The rest will be .38's.

I was griping about the cost of those 125's, but they cost no more than todays "premium" defense rounds. They just come in a box of 50, instead of 20 or 25.

 

[IrishCop]

I wish I still had my Model 19. I only have a 6" Python currently.

I agree with your thinking regarding 'anti-personnel' use of the .357 Magnum.
Light hollow points would tend to be more devastating.

I have my own philosophy on .357s. I use +P .38 Spl. loads for defense and load/buy 158 gr. soft points for my Magnum rounds. The .38s should work fine for defense while the Mag rounds utilise its special properties for best range/penetration. I should state that I have no practical experience and am operating on theory alone.

I do agree with you that placement is what counts. 28 years in EMS backs that up. I have 3 score and 2 years on this earth and don't think you have fallen for any 'hype'. I think you are right on for your purposes.

Uhhh, Darbeit, if you'd like to work out a trade, my Model 19 4" for your Python 6", I'd be happy to accommodate you...

 

[Skeptic49]

If I were a rich man:

http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?c...266&type=2&mfg=RT&bulletWeight=125&category=3

The 100 round box of UMC SJHP 125gr. .357 Magnums looks good to me.

Geoff
Who has some around here someplace.

 

[DArbeit]

Kind of you to offer but I will pass. That is my curse as I don't want one of them, I want BOTH of them!

 

[shep854]

The take of an avid gun-mag reader from the '90s:
There were three Holy Grails for SD handgunners--.45ACP, .357Mag 125gr, and manageable high-capacity handguns.
As I saw it, the quest took two threads;1) duplicating .45 performance in a hi-cap frame. This gave rise to the (very) short-lived .41AE and the .40S&W, and
2) duplicating the .357 via the insanely hot +P+ 9mm (which ate 9mm pistols), then the 357Sig, which allowed stronger .40 parts, but is still hard on the host pistols.
It appears that the .40 is prevailing, especially in the newer loadings.

 

[IrishCop]

The take of an avid gun-mag reader from the '90s:
There were three Holy Grails for SD handgunners--.45ACP, .357Mag 125gr, and manageable high-capacity handguns.
As I saw it, the quest took two threads;1) duplicating .45 performance in a hi-cap frame. This gave rise to the (very) short-lived .41AE and the .40S&W, and
2) duplicating the .357 via the insanely hot +P+ 9mm (which ate 9mm pistols), then the 357Sig, which allowed stronger .40 parts, but is still hard on the host pistols.
It appears that the .40 is prevailing, especially in the newer loadings.

I am pretty sure .40 S&W is the single most popular police load in the country today. It seems to offer the "best of both worlds"; a larger diameter, heavier bullet than the 9mm, and a higher capacity magazine in a more ergonomic grip than can be fielded for the .45ACP (although the Springfield XD and S&W M&P in .45 feel really good in my hands).

The PD for our county seat has been issuing 9mm+P+ for years now. They've had to trade their Berreta's in earlier than one would think, mainly because they were starting to shows signs of wear.

There was a move within the department to switch to the .40 S&W, and a fairly large group who wanted to switch to Glocks. That faction tried to argue ergonomics, but that dog just didn't hunt...not well anyway. The trigger reach is definitely longer on the Berreta, but otherwise I think the ergonomics are a toss up for us small handed folks.

 

[William R. Moore]

Does "ergonomics" translate to "world leader in ND's"?

 

[Skeptic49]

That's interesting, I went to Hornady and Remington to try a comparison between .357 Magnum 125gr and 357 Sig 125gr and .38 Super in a hollow point. Guess what?

Neither lists the .38 Super any more!

Geoff
Who is in serious shock!

 

[Skeptic49]

At last From Winchester:

Product Symbol: X38ASHP Ammo to Go $39.95 @50 rds
Cartridge: 38 Super Automatic +P
Bullet Weight: 125
Muzzle Velocity: 1240
Ballistic Co-efficient:
Barrel Length: 5.00"

Product Symbol: X38S8HP Cheaper than Dirt $36.24 @50 rds
Cartridge: 38 Special +P
Bullet Weight: 125
Muzzle Velocity: 945
Ballistic Co-efficient:
Barrel Length: 4.00" Vented

Product Symbol: X3576P Unavailable??
Cartridge: 357 Magnum
Bullet Weight: 125
Muzzle Velocity: 1450
Ballistic Co-efficient:
Barrel Length: 4.00" Vented

Product Symbol: USA357SJHP Ammo to Go $33.95 @50 rds
Cartridge: 357 SIG
Bullet Weight: 125
Muzzle Velocity: 1350
Ballistic Co-efficient:
Barrel Length: NA

So there you have it!

Geoff
Who wonders how much real difference there is in that 100 or 200 or 300 FPS?

 

[IrishCop]

Does "ergonomics" translate to "world leader in ND's"?

I know Glock has a large share of today's police market, but believe me, I'm not a big fan. The .40's do fit me a little better than Glock's .45...damned thing feels like a 2 X 4 in my chubby little mitts...but a lot of departments came on board with the .40 when S&W was about the only game in town. And their semi-auto's did feel pretty good in the hand.

To be fair, Glocks are great holster guns if you work in a humid or salt air environment; they require minimum maintenance, are reasonably accurate and quite reliable. They're just soulless little bastards.

The only Glock I have is the one issued to me. Since I'm a serial gun buyer, that oughta tell you something. ;-)

 

[Skeptic49]

Does anyone have any experience with the SWaMPy in 357 SIG?

Geoff
Who has a 9c, which is a bit chunky for CCW in the land of Spandex and sunshine.

 

[William R. Moore]

IIRC, the New Mexico State Police use that particular item. There may be some agency closer to you, but off the top of my head, I'm just not sure. Except for increased fuss at the muzzle, I wouldn't expect anything different between the functionality compared with the .40 S&W version.

The Virginia State Police issue the round, used in the parent home (229 Sig). I've been on the line with them and if you have a 357 Sig, you need neither distraction devices, nor weapon mounted lights. The flash & bang will take care of both requirements. I guess if you don't get them with the projectile, you can singe and stun them while you regroup.

Of course, much the same could be said of many of the 125 .357 Magnum loads.

Re Glock: we tested them about '92. While there were a couple of things I liked (the plastic frame not being a heat sink in cold weather being one), there were just too many nagging things that made it obvious the folks who designed it knew nothing about firearms before they set out on their project. The killer was the inability to run even one magazine without malfunction (believe then and now a magazine spring issue) and the attitude of the company to our compliant about same (I've referred to it as the "Your Fault Warranty" ever since). Our lead armorer's son went through ~ 6 of them in his Academy out west before he got one that ran a couple of years ago.

Now every brand has their problem children, the major difference is the attitude of the maker toward them. When the national sales manager tells you the problem is that you're too stupid to operate the product before you buy the product, the forecast for future relations is pretty clear.

 

[WaltGraham]

Does anyone have any experience with the SWaMPy in 357 SIG?

Geoff
Who has a 9c, which is a bit chunky for CCW in the land of Spandex and sunshine.

Don't have that specific caliber, but I'm pretty fond of the platform. I have the M&P in .45 - it's a full size gun, and I plan to acquire a compact shortly.

 

[Patrick Sweeney]

On the ballistics, there are listed specs, and there is reality.

The 9mm +P+ delivers pretty much what it says. The Super delivers, but mostly because you find it in 5" government models.

The .357 Sig falls short, simply because most end-users use it in commander-sized pistolas, and the shorter barrel bleeds off velocity.

As for the .357, you are not going to discover 1450 fps out of a 4" barrel.

In actual, I'd-carry-this-thing-all-day choice of these calibers, my vote (and nearly heretical, it is) would be a commander in 9mm, with +P+ ammo.

 

[Charlie Petty]

I tried the SIG and found it wanting. Patrick is right about it and you save money on flash bangs.

I'm ok with the Commander, but 9MM? oh the shame...