[bearcat6]

Stag Arms had a run in with the ATF.
Feds seize hundreds of assault rifle parts from gun-maker

 

[IrishCop]

I read about that yesterday. The only part(s) I know of with a serial number would be the lower receiver.

The excuse that "the guy who did that was on vacation" doesn't sound very good to me.

But I don't work in firearms manufacturing, nor am I a BATFE agent.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Well either they were up to no good, or they were just dumb. Either way, ATF doesn't have a great sense of humor about not marking receivers. I hope they were just dumb, they'll get a fine and be on their way. If it's found they were up to no good, then they're done.

 

[WaltGraham]

I'm glad I got mine before this unpleasantness occurred.

 

[stand watie]

To All,

It is equally (or even possibly MORE likely) that STAG ARMS did NOTHING UNLAWFUL & that the BATFE is PERSECUTING the company to try to drive them out of the firearms parts business.

Fwiw & in MY experience (when we had an FFL for our family's store), as the General Manager & main buyer of guns/ammo/camping equipment/etc., the BATFE goes about LOOKING FOR any possible technical violation, in the event that a store is HONEST & TRYING to obey all of the avalanche of ever-changing regulations.
(ImVho, ALL of their "agency-generated" regulations are UNCONSTITUTIONAL.)

Note: It has been since 2010 the stated "policy goal" of the BHO administration to "minimize the number of FFL licensees" to LESS than 1/3 of the current number.

Our family nearly lost our FFL because a 44YO mother bought her 20YO son (who was, at that time, a ROTC cadet at TEXAS A&M University) a Model 572 Fieldmaster .22LR Remington pump for his birthday. = The BATFE agents CLAIMED that she was a "straw-man purchaser" & that because my aunt sold the .22 rifle to her, rather than to her son directly, that we "were in technical violation of firearms transfer regulations".

There was NOT then (or NOW in 2015) any public law or regulation that forbids a parent giving their own adult child ANY "otherwise lawful firearm", as a real gift.

Nonetheless, our company ended up paying a SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS to our attorneys to STOP the BATF from harassing us. = After that "alleged technical violation", the publicists of the BATFE "went to local news outlets", "closely questioned" our customers about our business affairs, contacted the civilian employers of several family members (just because they owned shares of stock in our family-owned corporation.) & FALSELY claimed that our firm was "being investigated for gun-running & selling 'assault weapons' unlawfully to criminals".
(On what planet is an ordinary Model 572 Remington .22LR pump-gun an "assault weapon" OR why is there any "legitimate government interest in" if a mother wants to give her own son a rifle as a present ??)

Personally, I think that our firm should have been able to SUE the AGENTS individually/severally AND the BATFE for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for damages to our store's & family member's individual personal reputation AND that the gross amount of damages awarded in such a case should come OUT OF "the regulatory budget" of the BATFE. =====> ImVho, LOSING a few such lawsuits should "back off" the "thugs with badges" & "encourage the agency" to investigate/arrest the REAL CRIMINALS (like the members of the BHO "mis-administration" that ACTUALLY smuggled any number of full-auto (THE REAL ASSAULT WEAPONS) to "los narcotrafficantes" in Mexico (& evidently to other nations in Latin America).

Our family's "MESS" & PERSECUTION BY the "liars/fools/Keystone Kops of BATFE" was several years ago & as readers can doubtless tell, I'm STILL angry.
(IF anyone wants to call this lengthy comment "a rant", so be it.)

yours, sw

 

[stand watie]

WARNING: My rant above, continued,

One of the "issues" that made our entire family "MAD AS H" was that the agents CLAIMED in "releases to news outlets" that we were selling "possible components" of unlawful "bomb-making & incendiary devices" to our customers.

YES, we sold (while a "general retail merchant" and traditional/rural area, COUNTRY STORE) COLEMAN fuel for stoves/lanterns, various kinds of dry & wet cell batteries, electrical wire, nails/screws/bolts/etc. and we sold (from our 4 pumps "out front") gasoline, kerosene & diesel fuel, as a "regular portion of" the family's small business.

yours, sw

 

[William R. Moore]

OK, from reading the press report, it appears BATFE siezed 300 lowers without serial numbers. That they later filed papers to "convert 100+ units to government use" comes periously close to theft.

It would also seem that up to 2700 other lowers w/o serial numbers were at one time held as reserve to replace customer damaged lowers. They'd be serialed to match the original item to minimize paperwork. Possibly also to complete sterile weapons for special projects by agencies that don't exist, if that sort of thing is still done.

I recall some ye...decades ago, BATFE agents having heart attacks when they found out one of the prominent makers had a special vault to store such items. Can't recall a literal Federal Case being made of it.

Possibly, Stag needs to revamp their production line to serial the receivers one or two steps before they are complete. Given CNC machining centers, that might be a bit tricky.

 

[stand watie]

William R Moore,

What the USA should DO is ABOLISH BATFE & REDUCE the total number of federal police agencies to 2 or 3 total.
(I can see NO legitimate reason to have over 80 federal agencies that currently have sworn/armed LEO. =====> In 2010, one agency head, while answering questions before Congress, admitted that their agency's "special agents" HAD NOT MADE EVEN ONE APPREHENSION IN MORE THAN A YEAR. Nonetheless, the agency had requested MORE agents & a LARGER budget for investigations.)
Then give the MOST VITAL functions of the abolished LE agencies to one of the remaining 2-3 agencies & return the other functions to cities/counties/parishes/States.
(I suggest the USPS Inspection Service & the USMS, as those 2 agencies are listed IN the US Constitution.)

Fwiw, it makes NO difference WHICH badge/credential that a LEO carries. ALL that matters is if they have a LEGITIMATE mission, adequate lawful jurisdiction & proper guidance.

yours, satx

 

[csmkersh]

Back about 1986 the NRA had pretty well convinced Congress to trash the ATF. The question then became what would happen to the agents. No other federal agency with armed agents wanted them, especially the FBI. They were considered dumber than a box of rocks. Then suddenly La Pierre realized he and the NRA would lose a cash cow. No villain, no money and membership would go down.

I've a friend who owns a gun shop. Don's just off Fredericksburg Rd here in San Antonio had a go around with ATF over firearms without serial numbers. He's got a number of old firearms, rifles, shotguns and revolvers that never had them and were legal. The dippy agent doing the review didn't know this and didn't want to believe Don even after being shown the law and the date serial numbers on newly manufactured firearms became required.

Go here is you want to know how many damned federal agencies have armed agents:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/03/robert-farago/full-list-of-armed-federal-agencies/

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Well regardless of the feelings expressed, Stag was caught with oodles of receivers that were not serial numbered. The law states that the serials number has to be applied immediately after the receiver is manufactured. You don't get a 24 hour grace period, and even if someone has to stay late, you must mark and serial number those receivers. So they did do something wrong. The question is whether there was any criminal intent.

The letter of the law has been broken, there will be consequences. The intent will determine how severe those consequences are. If they can show some sort of criminal intent, the consequences will be severe. If they cannot, then they'll have a hard time making a full court press.

 

[stand watie]

Kevin Gibson,

IF that is actually the law on receivers (which are set-aside by a manufacturer for replacement of defective receivers under warranty) the person(s) who came up with that rule is both STUPID & "a FOOL in the public view", as LA law calls such ERRANT STUPIDITY.

BATFE should be ABOLISHED & the majority of current agents should be "shown the door" & forever barred from "public service".
As CSM Kersh said, NOBODY in any other federal LE agency would want most of those morons with badges/guns, to be transferred to their force.
(I can assure you that my old agency wouldn't want even 3% of the current crowd of loons.)

yours, sw

 

[William R. Moore]

After coming to Virginia, I actually met agents of the BATFE who were genuine boy scouts. They were interested in helping licensees and nice folks.
I sincerely hope they've done well within the agency.

My previous encounters with agents weren't anywhere near as professional. A store I was working at was entered by agents who demanded to know where our illegal automatic weapons were. They informed me they knew we had them, there was a newspaper ad for them. When they showed me the ad, it was placed by Browning, introducing the new Browning BAR sporting rifle. While this was going on, the other agent noticed two destructive devices (flare guns). My phone call was made to their boss. After hearing what was going on, he asked to speak to the agents. They left without apology. I can't recall at this long gone date if the supervisor apologized. I do recall being asked if I was kidding about the circumstances.

 

[Charlie Petty]

Most folks don't understand that there are two kinds of ATF folks to deal with. For FFL holders more often they see "Inspectors" who come by to check your records and 4473 forms... They have a horrible job going through piles of forms and woe be to the dealer who has many errors.

The other class are the Special Agents who tote guns.

I've dealt with both and far and away the majority of those have been decent folks just doing their jobs.

I was a cop for a long time and every person you meet who ever spit on the sidewalk may be wondering if you are there to nail them. It doesn't matter whose badge you carry it's just part of the job. Sadly the world of firearms is so vast that everyone they hire can't be an expert.

 

[stand watie]

Charlie Petty,

As you probably were NOT an FFL dealer, I understand your opinion.

I strongly suspect that IF you had been ABUSED, LIED ABOUT & constantly HARASSED when you had done nothing wrong, you would be of a different opinion.

Fwiw, I've met a total of 2 SA that I would have any faith in as a LEO & those guys were REALLY GOOD. - The rest were GARBAGE, walking around in a cheap suit.

yours, sw

 

[WaltGraham]

Charlie Petty,

As you probably were NOT an FFL dealer, I understand your opinion.

Was and still is as far as I know.

 

[IrishCop]

Most folks don't understand that there are two kinds of ATF folks to deal with. For FFL holders more often they see "Inspectors" who come by to check your records and 4473 forms... They have a horrible job going through piles of forms and woe be to the dealer who has many errors.

The other class are the Special Agents who tote guns.

I've dealt with both and far and away the majority of those have been decent folks just doing their jobs.

I was a cop for a long time and every person you meet who ever spit on the sidewalk may be wondering if you are there to nail them. It doesn't matter whose badge you carry it's just part of the job. Sadly the world of firearms is so vast that everyone they hire can't be an expert.

+1 on that, Charlie. I have worked with several BATFE guys (and gals), and they were all pretty good folks. And a couple of gun dealers I know have said that their contact with BATFE inspectors has been nothing but courteous and professional...and helpful.

Now there are bad apples in every barrel. No doubt about that. But I doubt the percentage is any higher in that profession than any other.

And yep, carrying a badge...well some folks hate you the minute they see you, even if they've done nothing wrong. Some cause they have done something wrong, some cause any kind of "authority" just pisses them off.

Then there's the affable drunk at the Waffle House at 0300 who insists on staggering up to you and your buddies to say hi, then walk out and get behind the wheel of his car.

 

[Charlie Petty]

OMG: I thought for a minute it was going to be about the one who barfed in your eggs...:shocked:

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Kevin Gibson,

IF that is actually the law on receivers (which are set-aside by a manufacturer for replacement of defective receivers under warranty) the person(s) who came up with that rule is both STUPID & "a FOOL in the public view", as LA law calls such ERRANT STUPIDITY.

BATFE should be ABOLISHED & the majority of current agents should be "shown the door" & forever barred from "public service".
As CSM Kersh said, NOBODY in any other federal LE agency would want most of those morons with badges/guns, to be transferred to their force.
(I can assure you that my old agency wouldn't want even 3% of the current crowd of loons.)

yours, sw

Be that as it may, but that's the way it is. I'm not saying it's right, just saying how it is.

 

[Kevin Gibson]

Most folks don't understand that there are two kinds of ATF folks to deal with. For FFL holders more often they see "Inspectors" who come by to check your records and 4473 forms... They have a horrible job going through piles of forms and woe be to the dealer who has many errors.

The other class are the Special Agents who tote guns.

I've dealt with both and far and away the majority of those have been decent folks just doing their jobs.

I was a cop for a long time and every person you meet who ever spit on the sidewalk may be wondering if you are there to nail them. It doesn't matter whose badge you carry it's just part of the job. Sadly the world of firearms is so vast that everyone they hire can't be an expert.

I've met both sides. The a-holes abuse power horribly in the hopes the little guy cant afford to lawyer up, then they get him to cop a plea. It's a crappy thing to do, and the ATF does that more than anyone.

But I've also met inspectors who were VERY helpful and easy to work with, who genuinely just want to do their job. Sometimes they get caught between a rock and a hard place when their admin makes them push hard on a little guy with just too many errors.

One thing I will say...I've worked in a few gun shops and I've known a LOT of people in the business. The gun industry seems to attract people who just suck at record keeping. Not saying they're doing it criminally, they just legitimately aren't great record keepers.

 

[IrishCop]

I've met both sides. The a-holes abuse power horribly in the hopes the little guy cant afford to lawyer up, then they get him to cop a plea. It's a crappy thing to do, and the ATF does that more than anyone.

But I've also met inspectors who were VERY helpful and easy to work with, who genuinely just want to do their job. Sometimes they get caught between a rock and a hard place when their admin makes them push hard on a little guy with just too many errors.

One thing I will say...I've worked in a few gun shops and I've known a LOT of people in the business. The gun industry seems to attract people who just suck at record keeping. Not saying they're doing it criminally, they just legitimately aren't great record keepers.

And they are definitely in the i dotting and t crossing business...