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Discussion Starter #1
Just had a stupid question for something I'm writing... did anyone ever neck a .50BMG down to take a .30ish or .223 projectile? Point here being, trying to figure out something that might plausibly chamber into a rebarrelled Ma Deuce for longer "reach"... it'd need to have enough inertia to overcome some pretty serious helo rotorwash right after leaving the barrel though.
 

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I recall a .22-50BMG 'wildcat' made up strictly for demonstration purposes about absurdity. There being no powders remotely usable, it was simply a dummy round-in many ways.

I assume for some reason you're ignoring the .416 Barrett.

I haven't got a clue if there are powders suitable for the purpose but a .338-.50 might make theoretical sense. Given the BC of the better .50 slugs, the question is why one would bother- other than the kewl/CDI factor.

Neck down a 20mm to .50?
 

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Well, seriously tongue in cheek, there was the .17/50BMG Eargeshsplittenloudenboomers. But see comment above. I couldn't find those on the net amazingly enough.
Geoff
Whose Googlefu is wanting today.
 

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A while back I remember someone was making plastic .50 caliber sabots, that would fit around a .30 caliber bullet. Not sure if those are still made, though.

I also thought it might be doable when California was talking about banning the .50 caliber. Neck it down to .450 or .499 caliber.
 

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At some point, the US military developed a .30/50 wildcat for projectile testing. During the 1960s, the 10mm XM277 cartridge was based on a lengthened version of the .50 BMG case, and was intended for the experimental GAU-6 rotary machinegun. During the late 1980s-early 1990s, HK played with developing a long-range sniper rifle and cartridge for a German Army requirement, resulting in the 9x90mm MEN cartridge and WSG2000 rifle prototype. Current commercial cartridges based on necked down .50 BMG cases include the .416 Barrett and the .460 Steyr.
 

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Neck down a 20mm to .50?
The current 20x102mm round used by the M61 Vulcan was derived from a .60 caliber cartridge. The latter was originally designed for a pre-WW2 anti-tank rifle, but was soon diverted for possible aircraft machinegun applications. During and after WW2, the .60 caliber cartridge case was necked up and down to create variants ranging from .50 caliber to 27mm.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks, guys. The rub is, the application I'm looking at is an aircraft mount, but needs to be capable of both extreme precision at range and still having full-auto capability, hence going the Carlos Hathcock way and starting with a "sniperized Ma Deuce". If it helps to know, carrier aircraft is an up-rated CH-53E Super Stallion--stock version is called "the Hurricane Machine" by ship crews because of the force of its rotorwash, and my fictional bird has almost triple the power of "stock" generating even more downwash at full power.

Ballistically, how do the Barrett and the BMG compare?
 

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Diamondback,

In 3 decades of military/LE time, I've seen ONE wildcat on the full-length .50BMG case. - A .50 case necked-down to .411 & loaded with a 600 grain FMJ solid.- He called it "The Anderson Hammer".

That BEAST was done-up by an AMU guy, on a "one off" bolt action & I'm told that it was downright BRUTAL to shoot off the bags. = It was said to be about as much fun as "going a few rounds with George Foreman".

yours, sw
 

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Gale MacMillian necked .50BMG down to .375 but abanonded the project when the extreme velocity melted the metal jacket and fouled the barrel
 

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I think it was in the 50s when I saw a cartridge necked down to accept a phonograph needle as a bullet. It was some reloaders gag. I don't remember what the base cartridge was.
 

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The rub is, the application I'm looking at is an aircraft mount, but needs to be capable of both extreme precision at range ................If it helps to know, carrier aircraft is an up-rated CH-53E Super Stallion--stock version is called "the Hurricane Machine" by ship crews because of the force of its rotorwash, and my fictional bird has almost triple the power of "stock" generating even more downwash at full power.
OK, if'n you need exteme precision off an aircraft mount it needs to be both vibration protected and stabilized.

The effect upon bullet path of a strong wind close to the muzzle could be expected to be minimal. Bullet velocity is high, time in the rotor wash would be milliseconds. In addition, it could be documented in training and correction tables developed. How you're going to judge prevailing natural winds enroute to the target would be a greater factor. Disturbance in the force?

Now then, to burst bubbles.....triple the power will mean a revised airframe, larger fuel tanks, increased fuel consumption, much additional weight, limited range....you get the picture. You're looking at a helo that-real world-probably would need a rolling takeoff and not be carrier capable and would have to have the tanks topped by air-to-refueling like they did with SAC B52s.

Further: triple power to what purpose? Lift, high altitude capability (more rotor than HP), speed?????? You might wish to scale the power upgrade back. I don't recall what the percentage of additional power appeared in the Super Hornet upgrade to the F18, but memory suggests stretched airframe, bigger engine, revised wings and tankage were part of the package. Avionics also got a massive upgrade. A Pavelow version of the same airframe might make more sense.

You want to talk Ma Duece ballistics, call Ronnie Barrett-seriously.
 

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If you want to go high tech, make it a .50 BMG chain gun in semi-auto mode, in a stabalized mount with a camera sight/laser target marker/range finder combo.
Geoff
Who notes that might be a very useful tool....
 

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Geoff: That sounds like Rheinmetall's new RMG.50, which reportedly can interchange both standard .50 BMG and higher pressure loadings.
 

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If you want to go high tech, make it a .50 BMG chain gun in semi-auto mode, in a stabalized mount with a camera sight/laser target marker/range finder combo.
Geoff
Who notes that might be a very useful tool....
A very expensive tool .....

What need is there for a semi auto Chain Gun? They're electrically driven via a variable speed servo-motor. For semiauto a simple bolt action is fine.
Even a normally powered (gas) semiauto would suffice. A ChainGun is a lot of $$$$$$$$ for what you're talking about.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Daniel, the backstory is it started as a testbed for the K's powertrain, then had a fourth engine stuffed in opposite #3, and then the engines up-rated--not an all-at-once, but a lot of gradual tinkering kind of like a CH-53 version of how Dale Brown wrote his "Old Dog" having evolved as a series of improvements to the B-52. Standard E is about 13,200 shaft horsepower, stock K clocks in at 21,000, and this monster comes in at 40,000... if a buddy who's an engineer on the V-22 program and I are figuring right, it'd be able to sling-load a fully-loaded Strike Eagle.

William, a Pave Low package is part of it, and as noted I have an engineer working with me on it--we planned a second external tank on each side as a start, with an eight- or nine-blade main rotor to more efficiently use available power. We're also assuming part of the rebuild was extensive use of experimental composites, both increasing strength and slightly reducing empty weight. That extra power was part lift and a dash speed, but also with a capability to disconnect Engines 3 and 4 from the powertrain and run them as pure generators for a metric buttload of extra electronics. (Assumption: IF "adaptive camouflage" ever works, it's gonna need a LOT of power, both for the cameras and displays in the skin and for the computers to run it... and we're probably talking some beefy hardware there too.) As far as structure, the GE38 that powers the K is the same size as the E's T64, so not much enlargement there, the major challenge is redesigning the transmission cooler to make room for #4. Also, there was an operating assumption that Engines 3 and 4 wouldn't even be started unless needed for extra mechanical or electrical power--basically, the only times you'd see all four running flat-out would be slinging a loaded fighter (unlikely, but like C-5s crapping ICBMs a card in the deck available to play if needed) or in an extreme emergency where every last possible MPH is needed even if it means having to replace the entire top half the aircraft afterward--again, an admittedly unlikely scenario. Prevailing winds... onboard weather radar plus a satellite datalink monitoring NOAA's data?

You gents raise a lot of good points, some expected, some not quite anticipated, all appreciated.
 

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A very expensive tool .....

What need is there for a semi auto Chain Gun? They're electrically driven via a variable speed servo-motor. For semiauto a simple bolt action is fine.
Even a normally powered (gas) semiauto would suffice. A ChainGun is a lot of $$$$$$$$ for what you're talking about.
As I said, "Semi auto Mode" that gives you reasonable accuracy AND the flexibility for controlled rate full auto fire, depending on the target. Last time I looked the .50 BMG Chain gun was lighter than the Browning M2.

Geoff
Who notes flexibility is the key in special ops.
 

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Other than what remains on a secret list somewhere, as far as we know the Laser Target Marker is the most accurate means of hitting a target, assuming you have something to deliver a round.

I've seen comments on laser target seekers on everything from a 2.75" / 58mm rocket (making it a guided missile) to a 2,000 lbs bomb. If you are going to pack a system, it is better to do double or triple duty, and damage. Every kilo of payload has a price in the airframe and fuel tanks.

Geoff
Who works for a bunch of Navy Test Pilots...hey, I'm just the computer Geek.
 

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As I said, "Semi auto Mode" that gives you reasonable accuracy AND the flexibility for controlled rate full auto fire, depending on the target. Last time I looked the .50 BMG Chain gun was lighter than the Browning M2.

Geoff
Who notes flexibility is the key in special ops.
Well, you didn't actually say anything about "full auto," leaving me to believe your were contemplating a non-NFA type weapon. Perhaps I drew that inference in error.
IIRC the Chain Gun (atleast the version the Apache AH64 has) has a single-shot setting. I would hate to try to lug THAT particular ChainGun around.:mrgreen:
I understand the Bradley Fighting Vehicle sports a version that's probably more user friendly....but it is still mounted.
Chain Guns have a good reputation for accuracy. The variable rate of fire makes them flexible. I'm not sure how much a .50BMG would weigh next to a M2. Isn't the Apache's version a 30MM. version? Slightly larger, I'd say:mrgreen: . That would be a fun gun to "plink" with!:eek:mg:

TommyGunn

Who recalls the old TV show chopper called "Airwolf" was armed with Chain Guns until Hughes Aircraft, the company that developed them, sent lawyers in claiming that Universal TV had usurped a Trademark without paying any royalties ... after that the "Lady" simply had "cannon." :censored:
 

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My oh my, not Hughes anymore it's ATK:

ATK Defense Group | ATK

"The products within ATK Armament Systems include: the Mortar Guidance Kit and Precision Guidance Kit, 120 mm tank ammunition, the Lightweight 25 mm Bushmaster® Chain Gun®, the 25 mm M242 Bushmaster® Automatic Cannon and the .50-caliber Bushmaster Cannon."

They have no page for the .50-caliber yet.

There is this source for which I have no references: http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product2756.html

Geoff
Who notes a 2.75" Rocket with a Laser seeker head, could deliver a 2 to 2.5 lb warhead to a circular error of about ONE FOOT at 4 Km, if I remember the article.
 
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