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Discussion Starter #1
The Zero Emissions Vehicle is a political fantasy. Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret
When an electric car rolls off the production line, it has already been responsible for 30,000 pounds of carbon-dioxide emission. The amount for making a conventional car: 14,000 pounds.
... The life-cycle analysis shows that for every mile driven, the average electric car indirectly emits about six ounces of carbon-dioxide. This is still a lot better than a similar-size conventional car, which emits about 12 ounces per mile.

... Unless the electric car is driven a lot, it will never get ahead environmentally. And that turns out to be a challenge. Consider the Nissan Leaf. It has only a 73-mile range per charge. Drivers attempting long road trips, as in one BBC test drive, have reported that recharging takes so long that the average speed is close to six miles per hour-a bit faster than your average jogger.
 

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This report is shocking -- electric cars produce more CO2 during production.....and only get an effective 6 mph on long trips due to recharging times.
Recharge time is a bummer for me when it comes to electric cars. I really don't have any huge need for internal combustion engines, per se, but if I was to buy an electric car I would like it to be convenient. I don't want to have to wait overnight for it to recharge after I drive it down to the local quickiemart and back.
As far as hybrids are concerned; I think they are overly complex. Maybe after a few generations and improvements I will be convinced.
 

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And that doesn't even count the deaths of thousands and thousands of Chinese children from the pollution produced making the batteries!
Geoff
Who wants the toll told!
 

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While all this is true, it certainly doesn't mean we should abandon the technology. It just shows that this technology still has a ways to go to be truely viable. And only the left wing kooks are saying that these cars are for everyone; clearly they're not. Where I live, I can't even make a Hybrid make sense. But it doesn't mean we abandon the technology, that that it has a way to go. We have to come to grips with the fact that at some point, worldwide demand will outstrip our ability to get oil out of the ground fast enough to meet demand. If alternative fuel vehicles become more and more common place, that issue becomes less and less here in the US. With the increase in oil production this year, the first in over 40 years, we could be facing a situation where all on the US oil imports come from our hemisphere...just one more step towards energy independence. And the ONLY way you're going to get to energy independence is by working it on both sides, production and conservation.
 

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Kevin Gibson said:
While all this is true, it certainly doesn't mean we should abandon the technology. It just shows that this technology still has a ways to go to be truely viable.
I agree with that, actually.
Back in the 80's, visiting London England I stopped in their Museum of Science. In one room was a series of old cars -- I mean, O.L.D. cars. I recall one had an engine with a carburator that was a seris of brushes that spun in a circle, the purpose of which was to "whisk" up gasoline and aerate it. This was before the venturi was developed. Other old mechanics, along with that, showed very well the development of the engine was we came to know it throughout the 20th century. The carburator gave way to electronic fuel injection and a distributor with its points that needed replacing periodically gave way to electronic ignition systems, but we still recognize the basic internal combustion engine. That British car I saw had a four cylinder engine....as does my Saturn SL2. Granted that old British car had maybe 8 horsepower while my Saturn has 124 horsepower...but the principle is the same.
My Saturn is also a lot more reliable, and in the years to come we'll have better batteries and other systems to make electric cars & hybrids better, as well.
 

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My better half was tired of driving the Nissan Van we purchased just after my accident. Since I didn't feel it was necessary for me to haul around a powered chair any longer, I cut her loose and told her to get what she wanted.

She chose a 2012 Kia Optima Hybrid.

I expressed some concerns over the viability of the whole hybrid concept and current technology. She stood firm. THAT was the car she wanted. :dunno:

It is a well styled car. I really like the looks, both exterior and interior. Trunk space is limited because that is where they put about 100 pounds of lithium-polymer batteries.

It ain't gonna when any pink slips on the quarter mile track, but for us, the power is more than adequate. a 17 gallon gas tank, and Deb only has to fill up maybe once a week...and if you knew how much time my wife spends on the road you'd know that is pretty good.

The V6 Nissan van got us about 24MPG combined. The mid sized Kia Optima is giving us 40MPG combined. The car is covered by Kia's 10 year/100,000 mile warranty (EXCEPT for the batteries...those are covered for eight years). So far (it's been 6 months now) we have had zero problems. We'll see how she holds up.
 

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I agree with that, actually.
Back in the 80's, visiting London England I stopped in their Museum of Science. In one room was a series of old cars -- I mean, O.L.D. cars. I recall one had an engine with a carburator that was a seris of brushes that spun in a circle, the purpose of which was to "whisk" up gasoline and aerate it. This was before the venturi was developed. Other old mechanics, along with that, showed very well the development of the engine was we came to know it throughout the 20th century. The carburator gave way to electronic fuel injection and a distributor with its points that needed replacing periodically gave way to electronic ignition systems, but we still recognize the basic internal combustion engine. That British car I saw had a four cylinder engine....as does my Saturn SL2. Granted that old British car had maybe 8 horsepower while my Saturn has 124 horsepower...but the principle is the same.
My Saturn is also a lot more reliable, and in the years to come we'll have better batteries and other systems to make electric cars & hybrids better, as well.
Wire whisks...that's really quite brilliant absent a venturi.

Yeah...For those who think the electrics and hybrid's are just IT, I say more power to ya (no pun intended). And in a very urban environment, I will admit that they could work out well for an awful lot of people. Still, to my eye they have a long way to go, but I really look forward to their future.
 

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My better half was tired of driving the Nissan Van we purchased just after my accident. Since I didn't feel it was necessary for me to haul around a powered chair any longer, I cut her loose and told her to get what she wanted.

She chose a 2012 Kia Optima Hybrid.

I expressed some concerns over the viability of the whole hybrid concept and current technology. She stood firm. THAT was the car she wanted. :dunno:

It is a well styled car. I really like the looks, both exterior and interior. Trunk space is limited because that is where they put about 100 pounds of lithium-polymer batteries.

It ain't gonna when any pink slips on the quarter mile track, but for us, the power is more than adequate. a 17 gallon gas tank, and Deb only has to fill up maybe once a week...and if you knew how much time my wife spends on the road you'd know that is pretty good.

The V6 Nissan van got us about 24MPG combined. The mid sized Kia Optima is giving us 40MPG combined. The car is covered by Kia's 10 year/100,000 mile warranty (EXCEPT for the batteries...those are covered for eight years). So far (it's been 6 months now) we have had zero problems. We'll see how she holds up.
I'm kind of a tree hugger (although I doubt you'd find any ACTUAL tree huggers call me that), but I don't have the guts to try a hybrid yet. Mostly because I live in a very rural area.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
My principal interest was in the overall carbon footprint of the electric vehicle compared to a conventional vehicle and the political fantasy of the ZEV (Zero Emissions Vehicle.) Now we have numbers that show there is no such thing as a ZEV. ZEV dogma delayed development of the much more practical hybrid vehicle by over a decade.

Moving forward I would like to see what a hybrid could do without being encumbered by several hundred pounds of batteries. Batteries are not easily scalable because the weight increases in proportion to the product of their linear dimensions. I doubt that you could design a decent vehicle the size of a 4Runner or comparable SUV using the current hybrid design philosophy.

I would like to see a a utility vehicle such as a mid to full sized SUV or pickup that uses a gas or diesel in a engine-electric design. The TDI diesels that keep winning Le Mans come to mind. Use capacitors for short term storage but dispense with batteries all together. What kind of fuel mileage could you squeeze from a modest displacement high efficiency engine that only needs to produce power in a narrow range of RPM?
 

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That would be very interesting indeed, but capacitors come with their own baggage as well...but that's what development is for.

I'm still very interested in seeing further development of fully electric cars. The reason there's such a push for electric is to reduce fuel demand. Tesla makes a 4 door sedan that is just visually stunning, and the performance is quite impressive as well, both in speed, acceleratin, and range. Yeah, it's an expensive car, but when you look at it, you see that it favorably compares to other rather expensive performance luxury sedans.

And you're right, it was a crime to delay the development of hybrids. They just fail to recognize that not everyone fits into their cute little box.
 

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Any place an electric car would work, would find competition from public transport, if it wasn't so uncomfortable and dangerous.
Geoff
Who suffered through years of multi-hour commutes on two buses, to cover a trip done in 15 minutes by car.
 
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