Trainig accident claims lives of two FBI Agents in VA

4763 Views 42 Replies 9 Participants Last post by stand watie, May 28, 2013

DavidE

Discussion Starter · May 20, 2013

Two Hostage Rescue Team agents were lost, the article implies they may have been practicing fast roping onto a Ship. Sad, and it reminds one that the training they do is dangerous too.

Two FBI agents killed in accident in Virginia Beach area - The Washington Post

21 - 40 of 43 Posts

SpecialEd

· #21 · May 23, 2013

Ratfink2u said:
... I will add that any politician who wants to move further away from our biblical principles of this great nation and which it was founded, needs our NO vote.
If you want, desire, need to practice Islam, Buddhism or Satanism, move to a country that is rooted in that belief.

So much for the constitution. So you're saying if I want to practice any religion other than Judaism or Christianity I am not welcome here?

Ratfink2u said:
People who have no fear or respect of a creator, have no fear of lifes consequences...ie:Stalin, Hitler etc...

So Atheists can't be good people because they don't fear God? It is not possible to do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do, but only because you're afraid your God might get mad? Doing the right thing and being a good person because your are afraid of getting caught is not noble or respect worthy.

Ratfink2u said:
just my thoughts and opinions. I mean since I'm an American, I can say that freely. Thanks to the folks who died and served protecting that right.

And thanks to the First Amendment which not only protects your right to free speech but your right to practice the religion of your choice (or to choose not to practice a religion).

SpecialEd

· #22 · May 23, 2013

Ratfink2u said:
Wow, are you on mommys computer again?. Does she know? Better stop and go ask her...

He sounds like a teen but believe it or not, Melvin here is 60 years old.

Ratfink2u

· #23 · May 23, 2013

SpecialEd said:
He sounds like a teen but believe it or not, Melvin here is 60 years old.

wow! I never would have guessed that! Although age has nothing to do with maturity...who said that?

Ratfink2u

· #24 · May 23, 2013

When did I say you can't be a "good person" if you are not a Christian? What I said was Christians know they are less than good, They know God is Holy and perfect and they choose to worship Him in a country that was rooted in doing so. We have adulterated our beliefs into some hodgepodge of ???? who knows what we truly believe anymore. We like to believe all roads lead to heaven but that's not what the Bible says does it?
How "good" are you? Good enough? or could you be better? If you answer that honestly than I 'd say your lacking and your "goodness" is not enough to suffice Gods requirements of restoration of man and & God's relationship.
He requires righteousness and purity for a relationship because God is perfect, He can accept nothing less. Enter Christ, He is blameless and perfect...He alone can be the propitiation for God and Man.
So our "good" no longer falls short when we believe and repent.
wow, I just preached the Gospel...thanks guys!

TommyGunn

· #25 · May 23, 2013

whatsit said:
that's right, the cop mentality leads them to enforce ANY law, which is condemnation enough of their mindset. Remember, they COULD have chosen to be firemen. Firemen help people and are beloved. Cops have to make many people angry, it's part of the job. So what sort of person takes and keeps a cop job? The answer is most often "power seekers" Many a cop would rather rape his grandmother than give up his badge and gun.

:banghead:

Good grief.
I said that the politicians make the laws that the police enforce, and you have a say in who gets to be a politician.
Does that have ANY MEANING WHAT-SO-EVER TO YOU?

oke:

oke:

oke:

oke:

If someone assaulted you, beat you to a pulp, put you in the hospital, and the police showed up when you reported it and told you that they weren't going after the thug who hurt you because they had decided that assault & battery laws ought not be enforced, how would you feel about that?

Your final comment is simply base and insulting. You obviously have some kind of "bug up your bum" regarding law enforcement. I respectfully suggest you step back and reconsider your attitude. It is (aside from being vulgar) insulting and puerile.
No one here believes all police are perfect. There is no perfection among humans. We all make mistakes in both our private lives as well as professional lives. But to do a broad-brush "beat-down" on all police is a hallmark of the unthinking reactionary -- and that has never been a good thing. I strongly suspect it stems from some incident in your past which you have been unable to deal with rationally because you have wrapped your id up in your ego too tightly.

Step back and get a perspective. You will in the end, be happier, and will probably last longer here for it.
Just my humble suggestion.

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SpecialEd

· #26 · May 23, 2013

What he said! :thumbsup:

Ratfink2u

· #27 · May 23, 2013

maybe he could call the "firemen" he loves so dearly....oh wait, they don't have powers of arrest.
These are all good thoughts here TG and Ed. I appreciate them kindly. Of course we had bad cops on my department. We draw from the same "gene-pool" as the rest of society.
But by and large I trusted my life in the hands of my brothers, just like I did in the service. You have to trust someone sometime for something.
I am not ashamed of my 22 + years serving the public.
I was, fortunately, only involved in one officer involved shooting where someone lost their life. Their decision, not mine. I took that life in a split second decision. I didn't have the luxury of consulting others for their input. I feared for the lives of others and made a decision. That was what my citizens entrusted me to do. Cops wear their badges over their heart as a symbol of that trust. Do we screw up sometimes? Undoubtedly. but by in large we do it right without adoration or thanks...firemen, well, who doesn't love them.

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dfariswheel

· #28 · May 24, 2013

I'd suggest to just stop responding.

If this is who we think it is, he's a convicted felon, and has some really quite serious mental issues. I mean that in a literal way.
He's caused chaos in a number of gun forums and he feeds on the disruption.
The more you respond the worse it gets.

For a idea of what he is and can cause, use your search engine to do a search for "Gun Kid".

Ratfink2u

· #29 · May 24, 2013

dfariswheel said:
I'd suggest to just stop responding.

If this is who we think it is, he's a convicted felon, and has some really quite serious mental issues. I mean that in a literal way.
He's caused chaos in a number of gun forums and he feeds on the disruption.
The more you respond the worse it gets.

For a idea of what he is and can cause, use your search engine to do a search for "Gun Kid".

Thanks my bother..I shall. :mrgreen:

SpecialEd

· #30 · May 24, 2013

dfariswheel said:
I'd suggest to just stop responding.

If this is who we think it is, he's a convicted felon, and has some really quite serious mental issues. I mean that in a literal way.
He's caused chaos in a number of gun forums and he feeds on the disruption.
The more you respond the worse it gets.

For a idea of what he is and can cause, use your search engine to do a search for "Gun Kid".

Bingo! Don't feed the trolls! (I have to remind myself sometimes)

TommyGunn

· #31 · May 24, 2013

dfariswheel said:
I'd suggest to just stop responding.

If this is who we think it is, he's a convicted felon, and has some really quite serious mental issues. I mean that in a literal way.
He's caused chaos in a number of gun forums and he feeds on the disruption.
The more you respond the worse it gets.

For a idea of what he is and can cause, use your search engine to do a search for "Gun Kid".

Oh hhiiiimmmmmm!

Does he still have his tactical wheelbarrow?:sm_angel:

Ratfink2u

· #32 · May 24, 2013

TommyGunn said:
Oh hhiiiimmmmmm! Does he still have his tactical wheelbarrow?:sm_angel:

minus the wheels...

IrishCop

· #33 · May 25, 2013 (Edited)

SpecialEd said:
It wasn't "regular" FBI agents anyway, it was the HRT!

:banghead:

I've missed this thread. Our new friend has some..."unique" views.

And SpecialEd was on point. The FBI's Hostage Rescue Team was formed in response to a very real need for a highly trained, quick reaction team dedicated to hostage rescue. They have been around for 30 years or so. They are a full time, dedicated unit within the FBI whose sole responsibility is training and preparing for these very specialized and highly dangerous missions.

While there are many local SWAT teams throughout the country, I dare say none of them have the training and resources that the FBI HRT has. And if you want to know the absolute truth, many local SWAT teams are woefully UNDER trained and equipped. Quite honestly, they are just window dressing.

Fast roping from helicopters is a very effective method of insertion in a lot of instances. If you have a hostage situation in a multi-storied building for instance, believe me it is much easier to clear from up to down.

Effective though it may be, it is also dangerous, as other members of this board have pointed out. Training for it is also dangerous. And expensive!

These two agents each left wives and children behind. The FBI isn't perfect. LEO's in general aren't perfect. We are all human and suffer from the same faults as every other human being. Some bullies sign up for the job. Most of us want to provide what small layer of protection we can between good folks and bad folks, and hopefully seek justice for those we can't protect.

And we get to drive fast and carry a gun...

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Ratfink2u

· #34 · May 25, 2013

IrishCop said:
I've missed this thread. Our new friend has some..."unique" views.

And SpecialEd was on point. The FBI's Hostage Rescue Team was formed in response to a very real need for a highly trained, quick reaction team dedicated to hostage rescue. They have been around for 30 years or so. They are a full time, dedicated unit within the FBI whose sole responsibility is training and preparing for these very specialized and highly dangerous missions.

While there are many local SWAT teams throughout the country, I dare say none of them have the training and resources that the FBI HRT has. And if you want to know the absolute truth, many local SWAT teams are woefully UNDER trained and equipped. Quite honestly, they are just window dressing.

Fast roping from helicopters is a very effective method of insertion in a lot of instances. If you have a hostage situation in a multi-storied building for instance, believe me it is much easier to clear from up to down.

Effective though it may be, it is also dangerous, as other members of this board have pointed out. Training for it is also dangerous. And expensive!

These two agents each left wives and children behind. The FBI isn't perfect. LEO's in general aren't perfect. We are all human and suffer from the same faults as every other human being. Some bullies sign up for the job. Most of us want to provide what small layer of protection we can between good folks and bad folks, and hopefully seek justice for those we can't protect.

And we get to drive fast and carry a gun...

I second that..some of the best training our swat team received was from the feds. Since they possess the latest and greatest whiz bang toys.
We used an old armored car up until about 6 years ago.
All swat deployments are based upon a threat matrix nowadays.
This matrix takes into consideration any possible collateral damage, possible weapons, objectives, surrounding structures and value of target etc.
Not to mention wearing balaclava's, fully auto weapons, flash bangs and black PJ's..Bonus!
:mrgreen:

whatsit

· #35 · May 27, 2013 (Edited)

I'd be much better protected, and so would my property. if there were no cops. I'd just put out some tempting "bait', with it wired for sound, and hang the bodies of the thieves all about, with signs on them as to why they were hanging there. There's not going to be any assaulting or battering done here, I assure you.

By not allowing one to defend oneself and one's properly properly, we have allowed a huge group of scumbags to prosper and breed.

yeah, yeah, and ONLY the FEDS can have such wonderful cops, right? I mean, it's beyond the ability of the individual states, and let's HEAR what these special situations are, hmm? I bet that there's either other ways to do it, or it doesn't really need done in the first place. There WAS no swat, even on the local level, until the 68 riots, and those could have been handled a LOT better, in other ways. there was no fbi until Hoover just MADE THEM UP,. basically, in the 30's. Just as there is not a damned word in the Constitution about the Supremes being able to declare a law "unconstitutional". John marshall just made THAT up, too. And we let it stand.

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SpecialEd

· #36 · May 27, 2013

Time for a little reminder...

****Please Read Before Posting In This Forum ****

This forum was created to be "A meeting place for MOS, LEOs, FF, EMT/EMS and other emergency personnel"

It could have been made to be a private forum where a person would have had to present credentials to obtain acess, but that would not allow non members to view the postings and subjects within the forum.

The forum staff appreciates the sacrifices and job that our public servants do on a daily basis. As per our FORUM POLICIES we will not tolerate members who come to the forum to try and infuriate or make disruptive postings within the B.U.T.S. forum. If you have a personal problem with people who wear or have worn a badge, this is not the place to vent your frustrations. Go to "GENERAL DISCUSSION" or "DEBATE" forums. Or better yet, take it off the forum completely.

IrishCop

· #37 · May 27, 2013

:grin::thumbsup:

stand watie

· #38 · May 27, 2013 (Edited)

To ALL:

A few comments from an old, but NOT bold, state/federal LEO of nearly 30 years police service.

1. We have over 80 federal agencies, which have sworn/armed police officers. - That's about 78 TOO MANY.
(We would do well to ABOLISH virtually all the federal agencies police departments & put every LEO under either the USMS or the Postal Inspectors, as those two agencies are mentioned IN the Constitution. - Fwiw, it makes ZERO difference what badge that a peace officer carries & what we currently have is a STUPID, WASTEFUL, difficult to control, MESS.)

2. All too many of the police of those agencies are NOT "professionals", are POORLY trained & therefore EXCEED THEIR AUTHORITY & make STUPID decisions, due to IGNORANCE of the laws, ARROGANT ignorance of the FACTS & "A desire to please the politicians".

3. All too many LEOs believe the politicians at the top of the agency are "demi-gods" & fail to question what they are directed to do. = Everyone should read/understand the late US Senator J. William Fulbright's classic book THE ARROGANCE OF POWER to see WHY so many members of the federal bureaucracy make such STUPID ERRORS in LE (and in NON-LE situations!) situations.
(While Fulbright's book is not about law enforcement, he was "dead on target" about the federal government's ARROGANCE.)
What causes so many errors, which cost LIVES is: "We have the power & therefore we can do whatever we want to do." = The MESS at Waco, which caused 2 BATFE agents to be KILLED, was the direct result of the "bosses" wanting a "really big show" on TV. - I had a friend, who was then a Texas Ranger, who offered to go quietly apprehend David Koresh about 12 hours before "THE MESS" started. - He was told, "Never mind, as we have already notified the press and "it's necessary to make a SPLASHY ARREST on TV, to make a point".

4. Training should be "at full speed" & as realistic as possible because "criminals don't do half speed". - YES, some people MAY (and likely WILL) get injured or even killed in realistic training, but that is the UNAVOIDABLE COST OF preparing people to cope with bad/dangerous situations.
(At USAMPS, we presume that 1% of students WILL be "moderately or severly injured" in training. - "Black Hats" try to prevent SEVERE injuries, but experience over 5 decades tell us that we WILL have some accidents in training MPs, MPI apprentices & CID agents. = Since 1960, USAMPS has had 4 DEATHS in training accidents.)
Note: I spent about 4 days in the hospital in 1969, as a result of being injured at USAMPS in MPOB Class 3-69. - Nonetheless, I believe that the training that I received then kept me ALIVE later.

and
5. The current mess that we have in government is a result of LIARS, FOOLS, ARROGANTLY IGNORANT LOONS, BIGOTS, race-BAITERS, IDIOTS & COMMON CRIMINALS in the current regime, starting with ZERO & trickling down to the junior WH staff & "Eric Holder's Department of IN-Justice".
(The entirity of BHO's regime needs to be investigated by a neutral, hard-nosed & honest SPECIAL PROSECUTER & any law-breakers should be apprehended, indicted, tried, convicted & sentenced to LONG terms of confinement in the federal penitentery system, as the regime appears to be LESS COMPETENT that Jimmy Carter's administration and LESS HONEST than Richard Nixon's "crowd of crooks, kooks & outright criminals". =======> Judge John Sirica, where are you when the USA needs your toughness, honesty & diligence? )

just my opinions, sw
USACIDC, Retired

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Ratfink2u

· #39 · May 27, 2013

Thanks ED!

:thumbsup:

SpecialEd said:
****Please Read Before Posting In This Forum ****

This forum was created to be "A meeting place for MOS, LEOs, FF, EMT/EMS and other emergency personnel"

It could have been made to be a private forum where a person would have had to present credentials to obtain acess, but that would not allow non members to view the postings and subjects within the forum.

The forum staff appreciates the sacrifices and job that our public servants do on a daily basis. As per our FORUM POLICIES we will not tolerate members who come to the forum to try and infuriate or make disruptive postings within the B.U.T.S. forum. If you have a personal problem with people who wear or have worn a badge, this is not the place to vent your frustrations. Go to "GENERAL DISCUSSION" or "DEBATE" forums. Or better yet, take it off the forum completely.

:thumbsup:

dfariswheel

· #40 · May 27, 2013

And another nice gun forum starts to slide away.

21 - 40 of 43 Posts

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