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Trump for extended Background Check but Not AWB
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Here come UBCs ...which won't work .... so after the next atrocity the politicians will pass more gun control laws, which also will not work, so there will be more shootings and .... ....... .........
[/America, land of the free]
It was fun while it lasted.
[/America, land of the free]
It was fun while it lasted.
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2,134 Posts
"Universal Background Checks" aka "Universal Backdoor Registration."
This is why I'm buying only receivers and 80% blanks now, since we have this horsecrap AND "give up HIPPA if you want a pistol or semiauto rifle" here in WA... (For now they missed receivers on that, so I'm stocking up while I can for later builds, and Inslee/Ferguson/all their Grabber buddies can take a fat one up the you-know-where.)
This is why I'm buying only receivers and 80% blanks now, since we have this horsecrap AND "give up HIPPA if you want a pistol or semiauto rifle" here in WA... (For now they missed receivers on that, so I'm stocking up while I can for later builds, and Inslee/Ferguson/all their Grabber buddies can take a fat one up the you-know-where.)
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10,462 Posts
What really P***es mo off is they are proposing that I run a back ground check on my youngest son before turning my guns over to him. FYI he was a graduate of the Point and an Army officer. He is currently a government computer contractor but.....
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1,990 Posts
We have that law here in Oregon. I have a friend of 40 years and I have been with him when he has bought guns and had the checks done. Every year he borrows a 300 Mag rifle from me to go on a late elk hunt. If I loan it to him now we are supposed to go to an FFL and run a background check on him and then when he returns it we are supposed to go to an FFL again so they can run a check on me so I can get my own rifle back. It's nuts and it's unenforcible.
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3,920 Posts
If the feds don't know who has what firearms how will they know whether or not a background check has been done...
And then there are the ones I lost in that tragic boating accident.
And then there are the ones I lost in that tragic boating accident.
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13,181 Posts
I finally figgered out what "universal background check" means: It means you can't have it until they have searched the entire universe looking for some reason to not let you have it.
Also, realize that the UBC will only really apply to guns manufactured after its effective date, and to people who aren't old enough on the effective date to own firearms.
Also, realize that the UBC will only really apply to guns manufactured after its effective date, and to people who aren't old enough on the effective date to own firearms.
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2,134 Posts
There IS always the Eighty Percent Option... if you don't mind a plastic lower you can knock out an AR with just a few hours and a cordless hand drill. 
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2,134 Posts
So, I've been drafting an op-ed for the "Republican Conservative" site I write for, and since this is targeted to let some "GOP Establishment Squish" readers know where the *serious* gun community stands (as opposed to the Elmer Fudd Kapos) I'd appreciate your thoughts on refining it.
-----begin draft-----
You lite-beer Vichy Republican Quislings say you want to "have a conversation" about guns. Well, you've played the "I'll pay you Tuesday for a cheeseburger today" card one time too many without making good on any of your IOU's ever, and always demanded we "take one for the team" without the team ever doing anything for US, and we're sick of it. We're sick of the Failure Theater, we're sick of the under-the-radar collaboration with Gun Grabbers, and we're sick of YOU, which is why we shoved the Giant Orange Dick up your a** without courtesy of lube, just the same as you've shoved so much up ours.
You want to "talk" about Red Flags and Background Checks. Well, this time it's YOUR turn to make the "gesture of good faith" up front. Pick one item from the following list, any ONE, and get it signed into law, and then we'll talk; until then go f*** yourselves right up the a** and die of AIDS.
We require any one of these as an "earnest money" down payment:
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Nationwide Carry.
Pick one of those, any one of them, and get it done, and then we'll have a conversation. We have our own requirements on UBC's and ERPO's, and we require some things in return as well... "compromise" means "give and take," which means we have to GET something rather than "give us X and we'll let you keep Y until we come back tomorrow to demand you give us Y for letting you keep Z" as you've always done. We're woke to that horses***, and we're done with letting you run that scam on us.
WHEN the time for that conversation comes, our terms will be something like these...
UBC's - We demand the 4473 be greatly simplified to prevent "backdoor registration". Name, address, DL #, optional space for SSN/UPIN. No firearm data collected. No waiting periods except in Delay or appealing Deny--iron goes home immediately upon a Proceed. To ease the process we would also accept a 1-800 number or mobile app where anyone can call in a check, again collecting transferee data only and not anything that could create a "back-door registry"; alternately go with a Livescan-based BGC idea like this proposal by M4C member "rero360":
Red Flag - Crenshaw pays a good lip-service game, but there are things in his list of conditions that need to be tightened down.
* Petitions initiated by law enforcement, not by spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.
* Ex parte hearings only when there is proof of necessity.
* Proof beyond reasonable doubt.
* Guarantees of all due process rights, including cross-examination and right to counsel.
* Court-appointed counsel if the respondent so wishes.
* A civil and criminal remedy for victims of false and malicious petitions. False red-flag filers REQUIRED to be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law on Federal "deprivation of rights under color of law", ZERO prosecutorial discretion.
* Safe and orderly procedures for relinquishment of firearms. ^Relinquished weapons to be kept in double-locked cases with one key retained by the owner and ONLY opened under owner supervision.^
* Prohibition of no-knock raids.
* Storage of relinquished firearms by responsible third parties.
* Prompt 2-3 business days restoration of concealed carry permits for the falsely accused.
* Prompt 2-3 business days return of firearms upon the termination of an order.
* Renewal of orders based on presentation of clear and convincing proof.
* Not allowing time-limited orders to be bootstrapped into lifetime federal prohibition.
And what we get in return? In return for allowing you both of your coveted prizes above, we demand ALL of the following as our "take" in "give and take":
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Nationwide Carry.
You've had your way with us for most of the past hundred years. Now it's time for you to start making it up to us, or the lot of you can all go to Hell and take your scumbag Demoproggie pals with you.
-----end draft-----
Anything you guys would add to the Demand List? In my Business major days, I was always taught that "if the other guy doesn't laugh in your face at your first offer, you've already set yourself up to be rolled in that negotiation."
-----begin draft-----
You lite-beer Vichy Republican Quislings say you want to "have a conversation" about guns. Well, you've played the "I'll pay you Tuesday for a cheeseburger today" card one time too many without making good on any of your IOU's ever, and always demanded we "take one for the team" without the team ever doing anything for US, and we're sick of it. We're sick of the Failure Theater, we're sick of the under-the-radar collaboration with Gun Grabbers, and we're sick of YOU, which is why we shoved the Giant Orange Dick up your a** without courtesy of lube, just the same as you've shoved so much up ours.
You want to "talk" about Red Flags and Background Checks. Well, this time it's YOUR turn to make the "gesture of good faith" up front. Pick one item from the following list, any ONE, and get it signed into law, and then we'll talk; until then go f*** yourselves right up the a** and die of AIDS.
We require any one of these as an "earnest money" down payment:
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Nationwide Carry.
Pick one of those, any one of them, and get it done, and then we'll have a conversation. We have our own requirements on UBC's and ERPO's, and we require some things in return as well... "compromise" means "give and take," which means we have to GET something rather than "give us X and we'll let you keep Y until we come back tomorrow to demand you give us Y for letting you keep Z" as you've always done. We're woke to that horses***, and we're done with letting you run that scam on us.
WHEN the time for that conversation comes, our terms will be something like these...
UBC's - We demand the 4473 be greatly simplified to prevent "backdoor registration". Name, address, DL #, optional space for SSN/UPIN. No firearm data collected. No waiting periods except in Delay or appealing Deny--iron goes home immediately upon a Proceed. To ease the process we would also accept a 1-800 number or mobile app where anyone can call in a check, again collecting transferee data only and not anything that could create a "back-door registry"; alternately go with a Livescan-based BGC idea like this proposal by M4C member "rero360":
Better yet, plug gunshops into the Livescan system and let them be authorized "service providers" for both gun and carry-creds BGC's at a nominal fee to the customer. No matter what, NO registration of any kind nor any collection of information that could even conceivably be used to create a registry.
Red Flag - Crenshaw pays a good lip-service game, but there are things in his list of conditions that need to be tightened down.
* Petitions initiated by law enforcement, not by spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.
* Ex parte hearings only when there is proof of necessity.
* Proof beyond reasonable doubt.
* Guarantees of all due process rights, including cross-examination and right to counsel.
* Court-appointed counsel if the respondent so wishes.
* A civil and criminal remedy for victims of false and malicious petitions. False red-flag filers REQUIRED to be prosecuted to fullest extent of the law on Federal "deprivation of rights under color of law", ZERO prosecutorial discretion.
* Safe and orderly procedures for relinquishment of firearms. ^Relinquished weapons to be kept in double-locked cases with one key retained by the owner and ONLY opened under owner supervision.^
* Prohibition of no-knock raids.
* Storage of relinquished firearms by responsible third parties.
* Prompt 2-3 business days restoration of concealed carry permits for the falsely accused.
* Prompt 2-3 business days return of firearms upon the termination of an order.
* Renewal of orders based on presentation of clear and convincing proof.
* Not allowing time-limited orders to be bootstrapped into lifetime federal prohibition.
And what we get in return? In return for allowing you both of your coveted prizes above, we demand ALL of the following as our "take" in "give and take":
* Sporting Purposes clause of GCA68 repealed. No more 922R or import-bans except in cases of sanctioned companies/countries.
* MG Registry reopened, with a two-year amnesty to register any previously-unregistered MG's. No more post-samples, every single machinegun in America including the military's are all transferable.
* SBR/SBS's and Suppressors removed from NFA--Title II reduced to MG's, Destructive Devices and Disguised Firearms ONLY.
* Significant curtailment or elimination of Victim Disarmament Zones.
* Mandatory basic-safety education in schools--Eddie Eagle/Four Rules stuff.
* Federal funding to build and maintain rifle ranges on BLM/National Forest land. Said ranges forbidden to restrict magazine capacities, and built to Defense Department training range standards.
* Nationwide Carry.
You've had your way with us for most of the past hundred years. Now it's time for you to start making it up to us, or the lot of you can all go to Hell and take your scumbag Demoproggie pals with you.
-----end draft-----
Anything you guys would add to the Demand List? In my Business major days, I was always taught that "if the other guy doesn't laugh in your face at your first offer, you've already set yourself up to be rolled in that negotiation."
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This is my second draft, TG; if you want to see the original it's at https://www.northwestfirearms.com/t...flags-and-getting-something-in-return.306124/
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That's well done, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
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I'm sorta thinking that what might be proposed is when police have taken official notice of "unusual" behavior, that they have to report it to the Feds for entry into the records check system.
There's several problems, one being getting some folks to not say, "Ah, that's just (insert name) being stupid" when it's an actual potential issue. Buried in there is how accurate one's crystal ball is, but again, there's some folks who "just ain't right". Obviously, there's also a due process issue here if things are going to be done correctly/legally. This is ignoring exactly how one describes the "unusual" behavior that gets the process started. The USSR was infamous for warehousing people for "mental issues". This wouldn't be as drastic but could possibly be an infringement of civil rights. There would need to be a substantial path to correct bad information.
Buried in here is a mini-series currently on TV about a town/county in Missouri that was (allegedly) terrorized by some guy for over a decade. He finally got killed in the middle of town by persons unknown.
I'm continually amazed at some of the laws that folks who are supposed to be attorneys manage to come up with. Apparently, many of them slept through Constitutional Law-or at best learned how to parrot out the approved answers for the final exams. The one thing I ever heard (OK, read) that LBJ said was that one doesn't judge proposed legislation by the good it's supposed to do but the harm that can result.
DB, I think I'd redo the first sentence. One of the things we criticize the opposition for is being insulting/hateful to the folks you're trying to reason with. While the first sentence may be objectively true, the descriptors need some work. You might point out that the BATFE has proposed decontrolling moderators/silencers/suppressors due to the lack of their use in crime.
There's several problems, one being getting some folks to not say, "Ah, that's just (insert name) being stupid" when it's an actual potential issue. Buried in there is how accurate one's crystal ball is, but again, there's some folks who "just ain't right". Obviously, there's also a due process issue here if things are going to be done correctly/legally. This is ignoring exactly how one describes the "unusual" behavior that gets the process started. The USSR was infamous for warehousing people for "mental issues". This wouldn't be as drastic but could possibly be an infringement of civil rights. There would need to be a substantial path to correct bad information.
Buried in here is a mini-series currently on TV about a town/county in Missouri that was (allegedly) terrorized by some guy for over a decade. He finally got killed in the middle of town by persons unknown.
I'm continually amazed at some of the laws that folks who are supposed to be attorneys manage to come up with. Apparently, many of them slept through Constitutional Law-or at best learned how to parrot out the approved answers for the final exams. The one thing I ever heard (OK, read) that LBJ said was that one doesn't judge proposed legislation by the good it's supposed to do but the harm that can result.
DB, I think I'd redo the first sentence. One of the things we criticize the opposition for is being insulting/hateful to the folks you're trying to reason with. While the first sentence may be objectively true, the descriptors need some work. You might point out that the BATFE has proposed decontrolling moderators/silencers/suppressors due to the lack of their use in crime.
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The rub is, "unusual" can cover a lot of territory... for example, I once had somebody call in on me and have a field interview done while I was waiting for a bus just because I'm one of those guys who's *always* pacing and makes it a rule to be at least 5-10 minutes early whenever I need to make transportation connections.
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Walt, the goal isn't to do it all, but rather to run the same scam on the RINOs as the Dems do, "pay them Tuesday for them giving us a cheeseburger today."
As in, take their "earnest money," then welsh on the deal and walk away, just like the Dems did on Reagan's immigration-reform and any number of other things. Then keep coming back for another "you want to 'have a conversation' with us you need to give us one thing first"... and if they call us on it just come back with "how is what we're doing any different from the Democrats you've enthusiastically taken it up the a** from ever since the days of Woodrow Wilson?"
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7,286 Posts
csmkersh; All,
Equally STUPID was an FFL dealer wouldn't let my own MOTHER buy me a .22LR Remington pump rifle for Christmas in 2015, as he said that doing that made it an UNLAWFUL "strawman purchase".
I had to go to the FFL & pick up the rifle & do the 4473 AFTER Christmas. = Somehow an IOU from Mother isn't quite the same thing as opening a package at the family Christmas Tree gathering on Christmas Day.
To quote my late grandfather: The problem with commonsense is that it's damned uncommon among government bureaucrats.
yours, sw
Equally STUPID was an FFL dealer wouldn't let my own MOTHER buy me a .22LR Remington pump rifle for Christmas in 2015, as he said that doing that made it an UNLAWFUL "strawman purchase".
I had to go to the FFL & pick up the rifle & do the 4473 AFTER Christmas. = Somehow an IOU from Mother isn't quite the same thing as opening a package at the family Christmas Tree gathering on Christmas Day.
To quote my late grandfather: The problem with commonsense is that it's damned uncommon among government bureaucrats.
yours, sw
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2,134 Posts
Also, this is why the Red Flaggers need to be told to Go Get Schlonged Up The Wrong 'Un:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethb...Dlz8rY29rnksAVkD8awgME_Z3pUrZgmpCDqtrO0LivnKc
After how they've made a similar Balls Up of the No-Fly List?
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethb...Dlz8rY29rnksAVkD8awgME_Z3pUrZgmpCDqtrO0LivnKc
After how they've made a similar Balls Up of the No-Fly List?
Diamondback, your concept is inspired. If there is going to be some new measure of screening, having some positive for the Shooting Community is a very good "Give and Take" angle.
The main issue with any new proposed restriction is that the gunpersons running most Gun Owners' Organizations are of an age that they remember when "Ban Them All" was the call of the opposition, and as such don't trust anything coming out of that side. Things like the CNN* "Town Hall" meeting after the infamous Stoneman massacre (Let's cover for the mistakes by authorities involved in not dealing with someone they had every reason to suspect was a danger by bashing the NRA folks who showed up in good faith for what was billed as a rational discussion of issues) haven't helped their cause there lately.
*AKA "Communist News Network," "Clinton News Network," "Comrade News Network," etc., as I am sure many on this forum have opined before.
The main issue with any new proposed restriction is that the gunpersons running most Gun Owners' Organizations are of an age that they remember when "Ban Them All" was the call of the opposition, and as such don't trust anything coming out of that side. Things like the CNN* "Town Hall" meeting after the infamous Stoneman massacre (Let's cover for the mistakes by authorities involved in not dealing with someone they had every reason to suspect was a danger by bashing the NRA folks who showed up in good faith for what was billed as a rational discussion of issues) haven't helped their cause there lately.
*AKA "Communist News Network," "Clinton News Network," "Comrade News Network," etc., as I am sure many on this forum have opined before.
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2,134 Posts
Like I said, my goal is NOT to make a deal, but rather to Screw Unto Them as they've done unto us. Call it "shoving karma so far up their arse it knocks out teeth"...
We have to be willing to say No Deal, and we have to be insistent enough to strongarm them into giving us something first--without both of those, it doesn't work.
AH! Counterpoint: "Fix the No-Fly List so you don't get absurdities like newborn kids being on it, THEN do something for us, THEN we MIGHT come to the table."
We have to be willing to say No Deal, and we have to be insistent enough to strongarm them into giving us something first--without both of those, it doesn't work.
AH! Counterpoint: "Fix the No-Fly List so you don't get absurdities like newborn kids being on it, THEN do something for us, THEN we MIGHT come to the table."
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