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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dean, while reading your Armchair Pistolero I had my curiosity piqued. (Again!)

Have you read Unintended Consequenses? Would you recommend it or is it not worth the time?
Or do I have to wait for a review in "The Armchair Pistolero?" :wink:

Thanks,

Ed
 

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SpecialEd said:
Dean, while reading your Armchair Pistolero I had my curiosity piqued. (Again!)

Have you read Unintended Consequenses? Would you recommend it or is it not worth the time?
I've read it and recommend it just for the historical background. True, John did embellish the Miami FBI Cluster f*** some, but by and large the events were accurate. Dean has written several articles on the shot out as have Charley. The Miller & Layton portion was very well done. If their attorney, Mr. Guttensohn, had appeared before the Supreme Court, things might be less onerous now.

The BATF hated the book so much that John and his attorney had to threaten to go to court if BATF didn't stop harassing dealers at gun shows who were selling the book.

Once you've finished that, get a copy of Stephen Hunter's "Hot Springs" and start the journey with Earl Swagger then his son...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
csmkersh said:
Dean has written several articles on the shot out as have Charley.

I've read many articles on Miami including everything in "TGZ"

Once you've finished that, get a copy of Stephen Hunter's "Hot Springs" and start the journey with Earl Swagger then his son...
Funny you should say that. I just read "Point Of Impact" the other night after some talk about Hunter's books on rec.guns (not my favorite place for book recommendations) but it was quite a page turner. I have "Dirty White Boys" and "Blacklight" on request now. That's why UC piqued my interest.

Thanks

Ed
 

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Earl Swagger
Hot Springs
Pale Horse Coming
Havana


Bob Swagger
Point of Impact
Black Light
Time to Hunt

These are listed in time line order. Dirty White Boys should be about the time of Point of Impact. It involves the son of the man who murdered Earl Swagger.

Master Sniper is WWII counter espionage and shows the Germans leading us in night scopes but has a different set of characters.
 

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csmkersh said:
John did embellish the Miami FBI Cluster f*** some, but by and large the events were accurate.
I asked Mr. Ross about the embellishments to the FBI Miami shoot out, and he claims that his account is factual.
SpecialEd said:
I've read many articles on Miami including everything in "TGZ"
Have you read Dr. W. French Anderson's Forensic Analysis? It's an excellent reconstruction of the probable sequence of events. I'm not sure where one would go about getting a copy of one, now, though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Tim Burke said:
[Have you read Dr. W. French Anderson's Forensic Analysis? It's an excellent reconstruction of the probable sequence of events. I'm not sure where one would go about getting a copy of one, now, though.
Yep, you can read about it here
 

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Stephen Hunter does a really great job with making his characters come alive. Hot Springs was especially good and I'm hoping that since he used up all the dead gunwriters in that one he'll start with some live ones next.

Dr. Anderson's book is excellent and seems to be a very factual report. I have not read the other book but guess I'll have to since Miami is something of a special thing for me.
 
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Another good, must read is "The Second Amendment Primer - A citizen's guidebook to the history, sources, and authorities for the Constitutional guarantee of the Right to keep and bear arms" by Les Adams.

Another good read is "Rifleman Dodd" by C. S. Forester.
Rifleman Dodd is an exemplary soldier: cut off from his regiment, surrounded by the enemy in a foreign land whose language, people and customs he knows not, Dodd merely soldiers on, seeking to return to his unit and in doing so, wreak as much havoc on the enemy as possible.
That, and well, "The Lord of the Rings" :roll:
 

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I had not read Dr. French's paper - fascinating stuff. Might I suggest Shibumi by Trevanian. One of my all time favorites.
 

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Tim Burke said:
I asked Mr. Ross about the embellishments to the FBI Miami shoot out, and he claims that his account is factual.
And when I asked him quite directly about that aspect of it, his answer exclusively with the most prurient aspects of his fanciful diner sex scene on page 414. This was what he stated on the advent of the 16th Anniversary of the event…
The scene in the restaurant was fictionalized because no agent could (or would) give me the exact details. The agents involved could have taken turns, or, alternatively, they could have gone for double penetration. I took a middle-of-the-road approach, and of course invented some dialogue to fit. But that *is* why the two MP5s weren't at the shootout...
My sur-reply to him addressed several of his assertions:
No, John, IMO you fictionalized the scene in the restaurant to titillate, and that's fine because UC is a novel, and titillation is clearly your thing... witness your above response.

But there is no credible evidence that anything of the sort occurred, #1, and, #2, if all 14 members of the C1 Squad had responded that day, there would only have been one MP5 (an SD model in Unit #88) on site. Refer you to the FBI's very specific inventory of ordnance in the ten fleet vehicles... perhaps you were thinking of the M16 in Unit #83.

And there's always a danger in relying on anecdotal reports from friendly FBI agents. For example, in November 1996 you wrote in (the Rec.Guns) newsgroup:
  • "Michael Platt was shooting a Mini-14 (1:12 twist) with 55-grain FMJ ammo. (An FBI agent told me it was Norinco but the FBI brass has been tight-lipped on certain aspects of this shooting, as you might imagine.)"
Aside from the fact that the Mini-14s of that day were 1:10" (and Platt's was a Series 184), the headstamps on all the recovered 5.56mm brass was "CBC" according to both the FBI and Metro-Dade crime scene reports.
For the record, I thoroughly enjoyed Br'er Ross' "magnum opus," but with several reservations, the most serious of which had to do with his "confusion" of reality and fiction which is passed off as historically accurate.

(A more humorous aspect of which was that, based on his narrative, I was led to believe that Second Chance's Richard Davis had dumped his wife of many years and married a flight attendant less than half his age, who was into contortionistic sex… Davis and I enjoyed a good guffaw about this at SHOT two years ago.)

Hey!, it's a novel… it's not the novel I would, or, Gawd knows!, could have written, and it's most entertaining.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks Everyone

Well a big thanks to everyone for their replies and suggestions. In the end I will do like I always do; read the book and make up my own mind.

Incidentially, my library system does not have anything by Mr. Ross -- Surprise! -- so I had to shell out the cash and shipping charges. Oh well, at least I have some background.

Smage, Top, Mr. kersh -- (being a non military person, what am I allowed to call you? :wink: I am about to finish Dirty White Boys after reading Point of Impact. I have hot Springs on order from the libraray but I will probably have to take a break from Hunter before I get any more. Thanks

Walt, A good friend gave me Shibumi when I was in the hospital in 1980 but I got released shortly thereafter (after five months) and lost track of the book and haven't thought of it sense. I will have to look that one up too.

Schmitt, I tried reading the Hobit when I was in highschool and just couldn't get into it however, I did get my wife the first two of the Trilogy DVD's fro Christmas and we both enjoyed them. I also looked up Rifleman Dodd but that era doesn't really get me fired up.

Thanks again to everyone for their participation.

Ed
 

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Re: Thanks Everyone

SpecialEd said:
Smage, Top, Mr. kersh -- (being a non military person, what am I allowed to call you? :wink:
Call me just about anything you want as long as you call me for supper, but Sam will do, Ed.

Schmitt, I tried reading the Hobit when I was in highschool and just couldn't get into it however, I did get my wife the first two of the Trilogy DVD's fro Christmas and we both enjoyed them. I also looked up Rifleman Dodd but that era doesn't really get me fired up.
Ed
To me, The Hobbit was written on a teen's level - but I enjoyed it the several times I read it anyway. There's a rumor that Jackson is going back to NZ to do the Hobbit; hope he does.

LOTR is definately an adult trilogy. I read the books about once every three years. Saw the movies in the theater and have the collector editions of the first two movies. The extended edition of The Two Towers is well worth the four hours just for the movie section. I haven't gotten to the added features yet but will.

Anyone into movies/DVDs should consider getting Band of Brothers about the 101st's Easy Company. Plan on spending an hour an evening for about a week to get through it.
 
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I also looked up Rifleman Dodd but that era doesn't really get me fired up.
I didn't think I would enjoy it either. But it is a very good book. Not so much into the firearms stuff (though Dodd is a RIFLEman in an era when the majority of the troops had muskets) it is more about survival then anything else. Try it, you may like it.

And people... I was kidding about LOTR. (though it is a good book)
 

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Schmit gave me a copy of Rifleman Dodd a long time ago, and though it's not one of those "gets you fired up" books, it was a good read. I'm going to re-read it now, since this discussion has brought it to the front of my mind.

Dodd was implacable; he had that warrior mindset that saw him through all the tough times. I am reminded more and more every day that the software is far more important than the hardware.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Software vs. hardware

That's right, it's not the size of the dawg in the fight but the size of the fight in the dawg!

Ed
 

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Stephen Hunter does a really great job with making his characters come alive. Hot Springs was especially good and I'm hoping that since he used up all the dead gunwriters in that one he'll start with some live ones next.
Um, that would be "Pale Horse Coming," Charlie.

Hot Springs is a must read.
 

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You keep hearing about Frenchy Short in Hunter's books, but other than Hot Springs there's not actual contact with him. Frenchy's death is discussed in Second Saladin and plays a part in Chardy's finding the mole, but not much else. IIRC, Frenchy was the guy who actually killed Earl Swagger.

Working on Spanish Gambit aka Tapastry of Spies and have Havana waiting on the end table...
 

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I taught courses for Federal Agents on the Miami shootout, and had a chance to talk to the Sgt. who did the crime scene investigation. Mr. Ross wrote fiction, including his alligations about what the two agents with MP5's were doing. I know - I read several of the PD reports. which, much to the FBI's chagrin, were honest. (One agent was in the bathroom when the intercept took place. The other had parked in front of a bank, went in to talk to the manager. The manager did not belive he was an agent, and was stalling while waiting for the police. Neither one had a portable raido.)

The biggest error in the book, in my opinion, was the blank search warrants. Here is how it really works:
1. Draft Affidavit
2. Get supervisor OK (no initials, the next step does not happen)
3. Take to U.S. Attorney, get initials, he/she makes 3/4 copies for files (as above).
4. Take to Judge's clerk, who checks for intials.
5. See Judge. You sign, he/she signs, his clerk makes 6 copies for files, U.S. Attorney, etc.
6. NOW you get to serve warrant.

Everyone involved has copies, or they could be subject to Federal Prosicution. No Judge would sign a blank warrant - he/she could go to prison for it!

If you suspend disbelife, it can be an interesting read. But never mistake any of it for fact.

And yes, I know how they got the original warrant for Waco - I have a copy!
 

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Sleuth wrote:
And yes, I know how they got the original warrant for Waco - I have a copy!
So do I. I've read SA Aguilera's affidavit He didn't know beans about firearms and, on reading the Congressional report, BATF didn't either. Then there's the sinister publications - like Shotgun Times, that Aguilera mentioned in his statement. And no one had a warrant with them the freaking day of the Waco raid. Then you want us to believe BATF doesn't make raids then get warrants? Gimme a break! Hell, BATF is taught to lie, even in court:

http://home.earthlink.net/~csmkersh/atflies1.txt

some here may remember when this made the news back in '96.
 
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