[TheCollective]

I was just reading over The Gun Zone's article on the .45 GAP. While doing so I clicked a linked article which contained this image.

The case support at the feed ramp is TERRIBLE!

For comparison attached is a pic of the 9mm, 40S&W, and 357SIG barrels from Glock pistols. I have also attached the picture from the linked article. I had thought the 40 case support was bad. Wait til people start trying to reload the .45 GAP.

I do own 2 Glocks myself and like both pistols. My 9mm has never hiccupped and my 40 is on a steady diet of factory NEW and only new ammo. I must say however that this new caliber leaves much to be desired in regards to chamber support.

[Edited by TGZ's Maintainer… see note below]

 

[Fernando Coelho]

Glock should consider adding a coupon in each box towards a Bar-Sto barrel. It could read something like, "Send your factory Glock barrel along with this coupon to Bar-Sto and receive a free Bar-Sto replacement barrel!" That way they won't have to admit their barrels suck while giving Bar-Sto some serious business. Irv Stone would have to hire a new person just to process all the coupons and send them to Glock for compensation.

I think Dean should mention the idea to Gaston at SHOT Show!

 

[TheCollective]

From the article:

With full-power 45Gap Speer 200 grain TMJ loads (G37 with a 4.6" barrel; 993 fps; energy ft-lbs 437; power factor 199), the brass expanded from .470 to .476 (0.006 expansion). After reloading the GAP brass a couple times, the brass expanded from .470 to .4765 (0.0065 expansion) with higher pressure loads. Folks, this is really good! If I remember correctly from my Glock 45 ACP reloading days, brass expanded by 0.008 or so, and that was just using standard pressures! Yeah, the GAP case really is strong.

But what about that big bulge at 6:00?

 

[Dean Speir]

Someone seems to have missed the admonishment about theft of Intellectual Property… in this Forum at least, we do not mis-appropriate anyone else's text or images. Wanna use an image here, link to it unless you have the permission of the copyright owner! Wanna quote an article, excerpt a representative sentence or two, and link to the source!

TC: your linking directly to Pete's image was the appropriate method… I'm not certain why the images were then embedded in the message.

Ix-nay, okay!

Meanwhile, the issue is still one of considerable import, and even with the demonstrable lack of .45 G.A.P. casehead support in the new Models 37, I don't see that those shooting factory loads are at risk… the cartridge is well beneath maximum (proposed, as SAAMI's membership won't meet and vote on this 'til just before SHOT) SAAMI pressures, and the G.A.P.'s case is strengthened in the web area because… well, because the round was specifically engineered for a Glock pistol!!!

Of course, there will be those Glock re-loaders who'll do something stoopid…

 

[TheCollective]

I do apologize for the image "theft." I did not notice a copyright on the image posted at GlockTalk. I suppose linking to http://www.glocktalk.com would have been appropriate for this image.

Also, I did link to both the article AND the image on the author's web page regarding the .45 GAP, 45 ACP comparison. I merely attached BOTH images for easy comparison for the reader.

Again, my apologies for the lack of a link to GlockTalk.

I do have another question. Why must Glock throat its barrels so much as to create a large exposed area of the case? Is the feed angle from the magazine that radical? Are they THAT concerned with feed reliability?

It seems to me the best place to address those issues would be the magazine followers/magazine design rather than in the the throat of the barrel.

 

[Dean Speir]

I do apologize for the image "theft." I did not notice a copyright on the image posted at GlockTalk.

It doesn't matter, TC… the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 is very clear about that, and this has been abstracted and incorporated into TGZ's Copyright information.

Essentially, it's this:

Just because it's "on the Internet," doesn't mean it's in the Public Domain or otherwise free for the taking… you may link, but you may not copy.

I do have another question. Why must Glock throat its barrels so much as to create a large exposed area of the case? Is the feed angle from the magazine that radical? Are they THAT concerned with feed reliability?

I think you need to remember that Gaston got into the small arms game to meet the Austrian Government's RFP for a new handgun, and one of those requirements was reliability. I don't know what the MRBF (mean round between failure) figure was… Charlie?… but Herr Glock addressed that with a liberal chamber datum.

Of course, the 9 X 19mm cartridge specificed in that contract is a tapered round, and is an "easy feeder," #1, and, #2, that "loose chamber" doesn't seem to have become an issue until other Glock Models were introduced, and these were chambered for straight-walled cartridges.

Karl Walther, who headed up Glock, Inc. until the great putsch of 1993, once told me, in discussing the original Models 17 ("pencil") barrels, that Gaston had no idea of how much reloading was an aspect of the American shooting discipline, that it was virtually unheard of in Europe. (Hey!, that's what I was told!)

When Gaston learned about this penchant of "those crazy Americans," he went to a heavier guage barrel… apparently he has yet to address those loose chambers.

 

[MikeO]

Thar she blows!?

Someday?

Yep, some guy over on GT already reloaded some 200 gr bullets to over 1100 fps in his GAP... and folks wonder why they blow up?

He didn't mention any problems, but I wouldn't want to shoot any of that stuff, or be too close when he does.

 

[Nemo]

G37 commercial ad

.45 GAP - The Solution to a Non-Existing Problem!

Three letters for you Don Gaston: ACP!

:lol:
Nemo

 

[petej88]

Re: Thar she blows!?

Someday?

Yep, some guy over on GT already reloaded some 200 gr bullets to over 1100 fps in his GAP... and folks wonder why they blow up?

He didn't mention any problems, but I wouldn't want to shoot any of that stuff, or be too close when he does.

The person who loaded the above mentioned round did not have any problem with his G37, amazingly. But at the highest loadings which were most likely way beyond the 23,000 PSI limit, he began seeing some bulging. Backing the load down to 1047 fps tamed the critter nicely. Even at 1047 fps, the Power Factor is 209 with an energy rating of 486. I wouldn't want to shoot something that powerful in a competition where I'd have to be shooting a few hundred rounds. The point here is that the GAP can take some major punishment and can play with the big boys if he wants to.

I just tested 230 grainers in GAP format. I had to work up the loads from scratch since there isn't much reloading data yet. I pushed the bullets up to 995 fps (228 Power Factor; Energy: 505) and there was NO 6 o-clock chamber bulge whatsoever. In fact, the spent GAP brass from my 230 grain Full Power loads could still easily fit completely into the barrel chamber!!! Not only that, I had already used the brass four times previously in other moderate to full power tests.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/petej/rel ... ngshot.htm

I used a fairly slow burning powder and recoil was quite mellow until I hit around 920 fps, still very controlalble though all the way up to 995 fps. I know some of you might think I'm way out there, but I've never had a reloading accident in the twenty-five years of practising the art. Either I'm extremely lucky or really good at what I do. In fact, I had to do a lot of study, testing, and documentation of the 357 SIG so the internet community could get a handle on reloading the little bottleneck safely (all the info is still available but is static at an archive site: http://www.pete-357.com).

I was at first horrified when I looked at the above linked picture comparing the ACP and GAP unsupported chambers. But this is the toughest brass I've ever reloaded. It's truly a godsend for Glock's unsupported chamber issue.

Folks, the GAP is very easy to make fun of, but this round was made for unsupported chambers.

Actually, Glock has answered their engineered unsupported chamber issue. The answer is the Springfield XD, I mean the .45 G.A.P. :lol:

Oh, Barsto is ramping up to support the .45GAP within the next month or so. Now we'll start seeing those pesky gap barrels in acp pistols, just like the 357sig in the .40's. Oh oh.

Will a GAP blow up some day? Of course. It's in its seventh month of selling to the general public (including crazy reloaders), and the record is still clean so far. Maybe unsupported chamber plus super strong brass is the answer?

Even if you subscribe to the "solution in search of a problem" crowd, I have to say this is the most fun caliber I've reloaded in years. Holding 10 .45 caliber rounds in a standard sized grip feels fantastic. It's one tough, performing baby..

 

[petej88]

From the article:

With full-power 45Gap Speer 200 grain TMJ loads (G37 with a 4.6" barrel; 993 fps; energy ft-lbs 437; power factor 199), the brass expanded from .470 to .476 (0.006 expansion). After reloading the GAP brass a couple times, the brass expanded from .470 to .4765 (0.0065 expansion) with higher pressure loads. Folks, this is really good! If I remember correctly from my Glock 45 ACP reloading days, brass expanded by 0.008 or so, and that was just using standard pressures! Yeah, the GAP case really is strong.

But what about that big bulge at 6:00?

The above quote from my review has been reworked:

With factory full-power 45Gap Speer 200 grain TMJ loads (G37 with a 4.5" barrel; 993 fps; energy ft-lbs 437; power factor 199), the case expanded from .470 to .476 (0.006 expansion). After reloading the same GAP brass five times, it expanded to only .4765 (0.0065 expansion), even using full-power reloads with a 230 grain bullet (995 fps; energy ft-lbs 505; power factor 228), which is actually more powerful than the above mentioned factory Speer 200 grain load. The fired brass (5 times used) dropped completely into the barrel chamber all the way (no resizing of any kind was performed), with no hint of case bulge of any kind in the infamous 6 o'clock chamber opening area!!! If I remember correctly from my Glock .45 ACP reloading days, brass expanded by 0.008 or so, and that was just using standard pressures! Yeah, the GAP case holds its own very well and seems to thrive in unsupported barrel chambers with no ill effect. This of course makes the .45GAP a very safe caliber to use with any modern high quality pistol --- shocking, but true.

Possibly, Gaston has not lost his mind... :roll:

 

[Charlie Petty]

Don't you think the folks at Federal and Speer should get a little credit. Gaston didn't design the cartridge they did.

 

[Dean Speir]

Don't you think the folks at Federal and Speer should get a little credit. Gaston didn't design the cartridge they did.

While you're absolutely right that Gaston didn't design the round, CeePee, upon information and belief, neither did anyone at Federal… this was a Speer project all the way. Yeah, they're under the same ATK aegis now, but as you know from your regular shuttle trips to Anoka, they're not under the same roof.

There's a terrific "untold story" simmering about the development of the 45 G.A.P. cartridge that's dying to be told, but it's not quite at a full boil jus' yet.

 

[Tim Burke]

There's a terrific "untold story" simmering about the development of the 45 G.A.P. cartridge that's dying to be told, but it's not quite at a full boil jus' yet.

Ya big tease.

 

[petej88]

Interesting Points

Interesting that Gaston has received all the blame for the GAP and the good CCI/Speer name is unscathed by the cynics. Interesting that there is a hot story about the Gaston/Speer project -- please do tell. :shock:

 

[SpecialEd]

Re: Interesting Points

Interesting that Gaston has received all the blame for the GAP and the good CCI/Speer name is unscathed by the cynics.

The complaints are never about the cartridge but the gun that came out late and not as promised.

 

[petej88]

Re: Interesting Points

Interesting that Gaston has received all the blame for the GAP and the good CCI/Speer name is unscathed by the cynics.

The complaints are never about the cartridge but the gun that came out late and not as promised.

The GAP cartridge didn't come out as advertised at the 03 shot show either. Switching from a big to small primer was pretty significant. And velocities changed from the original ads to actual production data as well.

Actually, I picked up major battering about the GAP cartridge on the high road and especially from Glocktalk. A few people are coming around, very slowly.

 

[MikeO]

Yep, if ya won't build a gun that can handle the cartridge, get somebody to build a cartridge that will handle the gun?

Now they can get to work on the 40 GAP and 357 GAP, the other mountains that must go to Gaston. :wink:

 

[petej88]

Yep, if ya won't build a gun that can handle the cartridge, get somebody to build a cartridge that will handle the gun?

Now they can get to work on the 40 GAP and 357 GAP, the other mountains that must go to Gaston. :wink:

Mike, you hit the nail on the head. :!:

Apparently Glock has the clout to do it by the way ammo companies and other firearms companies are jumping on board? Just heard a rumor that SIG is working on one.